Thursday, June 4, 2009
Lowest Common Denominator
What do AWANA, Max Lucado, Beth Moore and Lessons From Mayberry (and possibly others) have in common ? They all have managed to get their literature in congregations to be used as study material. While I am not sure all of these are used in ABA churches, some of them are. Where do you draw the line? Once you leave the truth to get literature from outside sources you get corrupt fruit from a corrupt tree (outside of the truth, all you can find is error). How do you get a Jezebel (someone not a church member and from false worship) teaching in a NT church? Make some popular literature and offer it as the hottest thing out there in religion. The church at Thyatira practiced pulpit affiliation (Rev. 2:20). Pulpit affilliation does not require a flesh and blood presence in the pulpit to occur! As best as I can tell, these offer nondenominational, renegade COC (ecumenical and instruments in worship), SBC (universal church and wrote off 1500 years of Baptist history) and moral examples types of literature used to replace the Bible and Bible based literature. If you can do it on a screen, be like the Protestants or do like everyone else is doing, you, too, will face the temptation to use the wrong material. When all congregations are using this lowest common denominator, the truth has fallen into the street, there will be a dumbing down and a loss of spiritual discernment. Has your church reached the lowest common denominator?
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I think you miss the point of AWANA entirely. It is a method used to help children memorize scripture. It is ALL about reading Bible verses and memorizing them. It sets up a point system and gives badges and awards. Concerning Lucado, Beth Moore, etc..., I agree 100%. AWANA, however, is simply a method that encourages Bible study. By the way, I've personally skimmed every lesson, and there is not ONE lie in it (unless I skipped over something.) Also, the AWANA system of scripture memorization is taught by church members who know the truth. AWANA is not teaching ANYTHING to our children, nor do they learn "AWANA" material. Our church simply uses the AWANA method of encouraging students to memorize scripture.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I don't know if you've ever been to a "Discovery" meeting, but the one I attended was ALL about "AWANA is doing this" and "AWANA is doing that" so "Let's figure out how to make this more like AWANA".
On the whole, however, I agree with you. We should not allow ANY lies or ANY false doctrines in our church. Then you have Revelation 2:20 where a false prophet teaches and seduce's God's servants to commit sin and practice false worship.
I agree with Bro Arch Bishop 100% including the ungodly garbage spewed by the writers of AWANA. Also the fact you agree to their universal doctrine before you are able to use AWANA shows the congregation that making deals with the devil and compromise are just fine.
ReplyDeleteI would also ad to the dumbing down of the churches also is seen in the use of sunday school quarterlies by churches that use ABA material. This is not the fault of the ABA, but the pastors and teachers in the individual churches. Some how it has gotten to the point where teacher no longer study, students are no longer challenged and discussion is rare in class. We have ended up with a generation where we just read the literature in class word for word and that is considered teaching and learning. I know that is not the case in all of the churches but in many if not most, it is.
But, use your AWANA, Satan loves it. God forbid we can just teach kids to memorize scriptures without the help of ungodly fools in the world's churches. Many of the people who put non-denominational material are not even saved.
But if that is who you all want teaching your flocks, that is between you and God.
I also wanted to say that you make a great point about pulpit affiliation. When we allow these things in our churches we are putting our stamp of approval on that ministry. The same as if we let an SBC or COC preacher etc stand in the pulpit and preach to the Lords churches.
ReplyDeleteIt is an awful awful practice that needs to be stopped, for the sake of our Lord and what He did for His blood bought churches. God's people need to stop thumbing their noses at God with these types of actions that bring reproach upon the church. It makes a mockery of our Head (Christ), it dishonors the memory of the MILLIONS who died in order to preserve the inerrant Word of God that we have. They died to preserve the lineage of churches that we celebrate today.
How can anyone pull 1 out of a list of several examples of available literature (that you have to go outside the truth to get) from out of the group, agree the rest are wrong and justify only one. If we think for ourselves, examine the choices about literature concerning the results, when did a church ever get more sound or more established in truth by going outside the truth for study material? Consider the path other AWANA congregations have taken! What is next - rock music? Interpretive dance (choreographed drama ha ha)? It is a slippery slope that does not lead to strengthening God's people in the faith. Instead of knocking ABA material, why not help make it better?
ReplyDeleteJames,
ReplyDeleteI was told by someone whose church does AWANA that you do sign a statement that you agree with what they believe.
The following is from their doctrinal statement:
THE CHURCH
We believe that the true Church is composed of all persons who are
regenerated by the Holy Spirit through saving faith in Jesus Christ; that they are united together in the body of Christ of which He is Lord and
Head; and are commissioned for the God-given tasks of worshiping,
fellowshipping, teaching, evangelizing and exercising the spiritual gifts.
(Acts 2:42,47; Romans 12:5; Ephesians 1:22-23, 5:23-24; 1 Corinthians
12:12-14; 2 Corinthians 11:2)
We believe that the establishment and continuance of the local church
is clearly taught in the New Testament Scriptures. (Acts 14:27, 20:17,
28-32; 1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:5-11)
We believe that the local church is autonomous and free of any
external authority or control. (Acts 13:1-4, 20:28; Romans 16:1, 4;
1 Corinthians 3:9, 16, 5:4-7, 13; 1 Peter 5:1-4)
THE ORDINANCES
We believe the ordinances for the believer are water baptism by
immersion and the Lord’s supper as a memorial. They are, however,
not to be regarded as a means of salvation. But both of which are an
evidence of obedience and fellowship with the Lord. (Matthew 28:19-20;
Acts 2:38, 41, 8:12, 35-38; Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29)
Notice that they believe in universal church, miraculous gifts, and there is nothing said about Christ organizing his church during His personal ministry, nor of alien immersion or closed communion.
They believe the local church is autonomous and is free from external authority and control, thus the "universal" church they believe in is nothing more than the family of God, just misnamed.
ReplyDeleteAs for spiritual gifts, the material is not teaching the gift of tongues... rather exercising the gifts that remain... love faith and hope.
As for signing a contract saying that you agree with their doctrinal statement, Grace Pointe was given no such contract to sign. In fact, the contract we signed said that the execution of the program and the teaching of the material was the sole responsibility of our church, and Awana held no liability for that... meaning it is our duty to teach the kids the truth, not theirs.
And Bro. Mike, since starting this program back in February, the kids in my group have learned the Roman Road, the Books of the New Testament, why God gave us the Bible, what the Bible is (God's Word) and why we have to look to God's Word and not our "conscience" or "how we feel" for direction. That's hardly unGodly Garbage. But hey, maybe the world system has deceived me into thinking that having kids be able to tell someone how to be saved is a good thing. Maybe I really need help and guidence.
WOW, reciting the Roman Road! What about their personal testimony? What about sin and the demonic influences in the world.
ReplyDeleteSimply knowing how to recite verses of scripture hole no value. Teach them to be soul winners and not how to "tell people how to get saved".
I would rather take kids street preaching, or door knocking than teach them how to go through the motions.But I have never been a proponant of teaching kids to recite scripture. But that is just me, maybe I really need help or guidence.
You heard wrong, Brother Landmarker. This is the problem with what you "hear". You can't beieve it. Do you honestly believe I, Brother Brown, Brother Crain would sign a document saying we believe in universal church? What you sign is a document saying you agree that AWANA is not bound by your church (For legalities so they won't be sued in law.) You can download the application from their site and read it for yourself. Don't believe what you "hear", do your own research.
ReplyDeleteSo you'd take kid street preaching, but you wouldn't prepare them by teaching them to remember the scriptures they'll need to defend the faith? You'll take them street preaching without having God's Word hidden in their hearts?
ReplyDeleteWould you send troops into battle without weapons?
I actually heard it over the phone from a representative for AWANA. I emailed the question to the AWANA site. A gentleman emailed back and asked be to call him. I did, and over the phone he said that you must agree with the doctrinal statement of AWANA. And that is assumed that anyone who uses AWANA agrees with it. You may contact them and that is what they will and did say.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe it is not in writing, but you are using it under the agreed pretense that you agree with their doctrinal statement.
You are signing on by the mere use that you agree. This is pulpit affiliation.
Also, Bro Acker, to believe in a universal church of all the saved and believe you should be a member of a local church is not the same as what we teach. Methodists, Bible Churches, Calvary Chapel etc will agree with that. They all believe all the saved are in the church and bride, but for the purpose of them getting a tithe check they teach that you must join a church (preferably theirs) to serve him but any church will do. They will still let anyone take the Lords Supper, and accept any baptism. AWANA is devil led demonic influenced universalism.
First I would never send troops into a physical battle period. But I would prepare people for spiritual battle. Memorization in not hiding the word in your heart. It is memorization.
ReplyDeleteI also would not use the "Roman Road" in soul winning. I would most likely preach the law, but wait on the leadership of the Spirit in how to deal with each person.
I would first make sure the kids were saved before any preperation for soul winning. Before any memorization. But they must have a love, desire and zeal to see folks saved which will come only after they are saved. I would teach them how to work their sword and on the job training is the best way to really hide the word in your heart. Use it in battle, not practice and play around with it.
Prepare them to deviate from the plan and take on all questions. The roman road is wonderful scripture, but too many times when it is in used the sword bearer gets flustered and confused if the hearer is not receptive to that particular script.
Let the spirit lead and do not prepare a script. Just like in preaching from the pulpit, know what you will preach without a script or outline and you will present it from the heart and the spirit will work. (last part is opinion from my experience, many more seasoned men may disagree)
Well you are wrong, Mr. Mike. I DID contact them, and it took them months to return my call, and they said I do not have to agree, nor do I have to sign ANYTHING saying I agreed to their doctrinal statement, nor do I have to teach it. This was as of March 2009. You are misinformed.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, (to those in opposition to AWANA) am I correct in assuming you will not purchase any kind of literature published by a group which believes false doctrines, even if the literature ONLY focuses on the truth??? Please respond.
ReplyDeleteMike, I find your attitude and demeanor toward anything you disagree with highly offensive. Do you really think that God will reward you for your stance against Awana with a "Well Done, Good and Faithful Servant?" Or will He address your blasphemy for calling a program that teaches scripture memorization and application deevil led and demonic?
ReplyDeleteAs for your diatribe about witnessing, you assumne that I am using a script just because I know where certain verses are in the book of Romans. You may very well have a better method of evangelism than me. If so, do it. Do what Paul said to Timothy, do the work of an evangelists, make full proof of your ministry, and quit trying to discredit everyone else's.
1. Many will defend the front door to the point of death. However, some of those same ones will allow the back door to be opened ever so slightly. Over time the "opened back door" opens the front door.
ReplyDelete2. Bro. RM,
How can I personally help make the ABA literature better?
Let's see, no I would not buy any literature written by any group period for teaching to kids. Even from the ABA bookstore.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry if you anyone is offended by my position. Well actually no I am not, I am sick of this ultra polite society we must live in where we cannot say what we mean. No I do not think God will hold it against me for contending for the faith once delivered to the saints and stand against evil. Even the evil that is behind some systems of teaching the Bible. Satan has his hand in these programs as well as all of the those perversions of scripture that AWANA endorses, the KNJV and NIV.
God's people need to stop being sissies about preaching the word and stand up ready to beat down the devil where ever he is rearing his ugly face.
My way of soul winning is no better than anyone elses way. It is the way that was used in scripture though.
Mike, you just don't get it. Never will, but in my efforts of futility, I will close my end with this.
ReplyDeleteAWANA stands for Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed, based on II Timothy 2:15. It teaches the kids to learn God's Word, though memorization and through analytical thinking. Basically, it teaches them the Bible, encourages them to share the scriptures with others, and trains them up to grow in their faith and service. I see that as a great program. It's not my favorite, I prefer Discovery, but I got out voted on this one, so I am working with my church (at mission status) to best utilize this program to disciple kids in the Word.
I am offended, not that you have an opinion, nor do I expect you to be "polite" (I've read too many of your posts to expect that), but I do expect you to have informed opinions rather than ignorantly declaring everything you do not like as satanic, or broadly declare that ABA Sunday School literature leads to dumbed down Sunday School lessons.
Making the Sunday School literature better? I don't know. I like the commentary quarterly (the big book, know what I mean?), and usually build my lesson using the word studies and information pointed out in that. It's a great tool, and can easily be used to train new Sunday School literature.
First, you DO NOT have to agree with the AWANA doctrinal agreement. I know. I had an extended conversation with multiple people about this.
ReplyDeleteSecond, (Mike), did you mean NKJV when you put KNJV? Just wondering. Besides, are you a KJV only person? I'm assuming you are. If so, does it mean a church is heretical if it uses something besides the KJV?
Third, I too agree that we must be careful in what we allow in our churches, so don't think I'm so wacko-liberal. I'm not.
First, I stand corrected, I just got off the phone with Charlie Gately 630-540-4613, he is the doctrinal rep at AWANA. He pastors a Calvinistic Universal Independent Baptist Church in Illinois, Itasca Baptist Church. He says they are not universal church people, but that is only because they believe that God has elected all that will be saved and those people would only serve in a true local church. So in his mind all the saved are part of the church because they cannot help it.
ReplyDeleteBUT as of a couple years ago, you do not have to agree with the doctrinal statement. They changed their "gate keeper" rule in 2001 and now you are not required. Although he says some in the sales dept might still ask you to because they are not aware of the change, which apparently is one of teh ones I spoke to last year when I contacted them.
Yes i meant NKJV,
Yes I am KJ Bible only, meaining I only use it for preaching, study, reading etc. All other english perversions I would line my bird cage with.
No I do not believe a church that uses anything else is heretical. They are not teaching the whole council of God, and are in error.
Bro Acker, or anyone else
ReplyDeletemy cell number is 435-817-7411. please get to know me. Anyone who knows me knows that I am not the mean guy that comes across in print. In fact I am quite shy, and quiet, and many times too much of a people pleaser. I get criticized because I do not get offended by others, and try too hard to work with them when some say i should cut ties with those that stab in the back.
Brother Mike, what do you feel about the KJV-ER, the TMB, the MKJV and the KJV21? Please research these thoroughly if you haven't already and let me know what you feel about them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I asked the following question.
"By the way, (to those in opposition to AWANA) am I correct in assuming you will not purchase any kind of literature published by a group which believes false doctrines, even if the literature ONLY focuses on the truth??? Please respond."
You responded by stating "Let's see, no I would not buy any literature written by any group period for teaching to kids. Even from the ABA bookstore." So my question then is this. Do you hand-write your own Bibles? Just because truth is published somewhere else does not make it any less truth. Just as I purchase God's Word (KJV) published by Nelson publishers who do not believe KJV only and put out curriculum by Max Lucado, just as I purchase Bibles published by Holman publishers and B&H publishes who lean toward universal church, and I purchase KJV Bibles from publishers such as Zondervan and TBS. These are TRUTH published by OUTSIDE companies. There is NOTHING wrong with them.
What is wrong, therefore, with purchasing study helps such as Sunday School books or commentaries or Dictionaries or lexicons by outside sources? Just so you know, our Sunday School class works this way. The teacher reads the lesson, the teachers commentary, and most importantly the scriptures. He then designs his own lesson, and teaches it. The students are given books to read if they choose throughout the week, but these books are not in any way followed during the class. So what is wrong with this?
jil3, the ABA literature Sunday School is GREAT for what it was designed (to go through the Bible in 10 years.) I personally think the BTC used to teach the same lessons over and over again (at least a few years back) and could have instead came up with lessons that apply to the young people's lives and adding the doctrine into the lessons, rather than focusing on the doctrines. Of course, if they've changed since then, I'd be happy to know.
ReplyDeleteConcerning Discovery, I'd like to take another look at it. It's been years since I've seen it.
Also, I've noticed in our Sunday School lessons, we seem not to mention much about the things that consume our childrens' lives, mainly music, TV and computers. This is what they spend the majority of their time doing. We could add some more about this in there.
Lastly, do you ever see our children's lessons getting back to the same scriptures as the adults books?
Also wanted to point out, Mike tried to minimize the whopping 8-9 years that it has been that one does not have to agree to the AWANA doctrines by saying "a couple of years." Brother Mike, I've been pastoring and youth pastoring only since 2003. This past "couple of years" includes my entire church position ministry.
ReplyDeleteI've been out for a while to church camp. Thanks for carrying on in my absence.
ReplyDeleteHow to help make ABA LIt. better?
1. Comunicate with the writers or editor if displeased with lesson material in particular lessons (I know several proof readers go over the lessons for scripture accuracy, content, grammar, etc but there are still some mistakes that get through).
2. Don't blame the literature for teachers that just read the material to the class. It is not designed so to be.
3. Teacher training seminars available from editorial department at Texarkana. (Better trained teachers maximize the literature).
4. Look at the ABA literature recently. Updates and changes are being done. The quality continues to go up and the content is written by ABA writers. If you haven't examined it carefully in a while, you should take a look at it. A recently and fairly formed opinion will conclude the literature is the best and getting better.
5. The literature agrees with the 21 doctrinal statements approved byu the churches of the ABA. There is nothing else lke it on the market. Make it better by studying the Bible doctrines and you will appreciate it more.
6. Send suggestins to the Editor.
THE CHURCH
ReplyDeleteWe believe that the true Church is composed of all persons who are
regenerated by the Holy Spirit through saving faith in Jesus Christ; that they are united together in the body of Christ of which He is Lord and
Head;
Bro. Acker,
That is clearly the definition of the universal church. How is that just a matter of semantics? This says nothing about all who are saved by grace through faith apart from works or ceremonies sharing the same Savior and being in the same family Being united and being in a body suggests organization and cooperation. John 17:17 says "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Amos 3:3 says: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" 1 John 1:6,7 says: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." Psalm 119:105: "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Also, God's Word teaches that Jesus established His church during his personal ministry on the shores of Galilee and promised that He would perpetuate it in a continual succession for all eternity and gave to her His authority and to no other organization and that the same church that now "is" will be the "it" which is the glorious church. (Matthew 16:18; 28:18-20; Ephesians 3:21; 5:22-27) As I said on the Landmark Baptist board, end of story. Btw, I did not say you do not hold to these things, but it just irks me when someone says it is just a matter of semantics. You start with universal church and you end with alien immersion, open communion, and pulpit affiliation. It's a natural progression.
All I am saying is that the universal church that the Awana doctrinal statement describes has no formal organizational structure, therefore no real function, therefore is not a church, and doesn't really exist.
ReplyDeleteThe universal church that the Catholics believe in does have a formal structure, a function, and while it is not a true church, it does tangibly exist. This form of universalism is the most dangerous, in my opinion, because it is actually designed to break down the authority and autonomy of the local New Testament church, which is why I oppose measures that will give the association more power. Those steps would be a step in that direction.
And while I see the danger of churches adopting the Awana definition of universal church going the way of alien baptism and "one church is as good as another," Grace Pointe will not head that way because I neither hold to, nor teach, Awana's definition of a universal church.
Whenever you use literature, there will be doctrines in there you will not agree with (i.e. Gap theory... I don't know why so many ABA preachers are sold on this doctrine). That's why you have to have well trained teachers to teach that which is the truth, and weed out that which is not.
Bro. Melton, thanks for your comments. Please understand that while I am not beholden to the universal church doctrine, I am also not defending it or minimizing it.
Why are our brethren getting SO concerned about the AWANA statement (what the publishers believe), and neglecting to see the fact that AWANA is just a method of helping students memorize scripture? I've said it before and I'll say it again, Truth is Truth, no matter WHO publishes it. Since AWANA's literature is not teaching doctrine, but helping young people learn scripture (the way that we decide which doctrines are correct), then why in the world would their beliefs matter?
ReplyDeleteWe use false religions' hymns in our ABA hymn book.
We use false religion's Bibles in our pulpits (published by false religions).
We use false religions' commentaries in our pastor's study (or study Bibles).
We use false religions' method of making our church known (the sign and steeple, or even stained glass).
We use the same method of living as false religions do (breathing).
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with using something that is published by, or used by false religion, so long as it is truth, beneficial, and prayerful decision. I wish many would read Brother Garner's 25 cent book about instrumental music in worship, to see our ABA forefathers' believed this very same thing. Truth is truth, regardless of who publishes it or who uses it. If it isn't, ABA literature is unuseable b/c of the SBC churches who use it which hold to a more universal church idealism.
JamesCharles wrote:
ReplyDelete"Since AWANA's literature is not teaching doctrine,but helping young people learn scripture (the way that we decide which doctrines are correct), then why in the world would their beliefs matter?"
I disagree. Helping anyone to learn scripture (God's Word) IS teaching doctrine (teaching).
I agree that AWANA is only one of many others. AWANA gets singled out often.
There are times that a N.T. church does not have a member for long. Maybe a job or the military service, or other reasons. If we as a N. T. church use AWANA while that particular member is attending and said member is not able to stay long in that one location, then when that member moves he/she may very well seek out another church that uses AWANA. This makes sense to me. There are many Protestant churches that use AWANA.
Of course, I could go far fetched and say many use buildings or wooden pulpits. However, I will repeat what I wrote earlier---
"Many will defend the front door to the point of death. However, some of those same ones will allow the back door to be opened ever so slightly. Over time the "opened back door" opens the front door."
However you try to justify it, what does an AWANA church and many Protestant congregations have in common? AWANA. That should tell anyone they are being like the wrong type of religious organization. Can churches teach scripture memorization without AWANA? Sure they can, if they choose to do so. By that token, no true church needs go outside the truth (nondenonminational programs) for material.
ReplyDeleteBro. R. M.,
ReplyDeleteIf you are responding to me, then allow me to be more clear.
What I wrote is a good reason for N.T. churches NOT to use AWANA.
A newly saved individual will see AWANA at another church and think that church is a good one, when in reality it is not.
AWANA is one of those things that comes in through the "back-door". In time it will change the landscape of the church. It is the old "warm the frog up slowly and he will not jump out".
I believe we are selling God's Word out and short by using AWANA and other things (which ABA churches use).
Arch Bishop wrote:
"By that token, no true church needs go outside the truth (nondenonminational programs) for material."
I wholeheartedly agree.
Bro. Richard,
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree also. Another thing is our pastors and youth workers going to nondenominational conferences like Together4TheGospel and the National Youth Workers Convention. Also, neither should singing groups be allowed whose members are from false churches. What is the argument being used for this--that it's alright as long as a false preacher doesn't stand behind the pulpit?
Btw, this can of worms is not even halfway open yet.
ReplyDeleteWhat else besides study material do some churches have in common with the Prots?
ReplyDeleteI already mentioned going to nondenominatinal conferences. Another would be hosting seminars for nondenominational organizations (Child Evangelism Fellowship) at the bookstore. Another would be selling other versions at our bookstores. I also don't agree with using books from other sources as seminary textbooks. I never have understood that. Don't we have enough writers? We also have a press and we already have dozens of books already printed.
ReplyDeleteIf I seem especially sarcastic, it is from a discussion I had on the Landmark Baptist Board with another ABA preacher. It is because I have a real "burr in my saddle" for someone who says that the "one body in Christ" as "the great embodiment of the saints" through our position in Christ. There truly is a world of difference between saying that all the saved are "in Christ", or in a saving relationship with Him as individuals by grace through repentance and faith apart from works or ceremonies (2 Corinthians 5:17), and saying that all the saved are "one body in Christ." The latter is restricted to the local, N.T. church, period (1 Corinthians 12:12-28; Ephesians 1:22,23; Colossians 1:18). So, if you say that "body" refers to the "great embodiment of the saints" or "the entire body of the saved," you would be by the principle of substitution teaching the universal, invisible church theory (substitute "great embodiment of the saints" or "entire body of the saved" in Ephesians 1:23 and Colossians 1:18), whether intentional or unintentional.
ReplyDeleteI am new to this discussion, but I have been on both sides of the conversation in the past. I do not agree with universal church. I do know that what Bro. Acker said is true. The SBC describe the family of God as the church. I know that because I attend Dallas Baptist University and am working on my Master's, and then my PhD. Blast me if you will for attending this school, but I have also attended TBI. I have been a youth minister and a pastor in the ABA for fourteen years, and there is not a perfect youth program available. I have been invovled with Discovery, Awana, and Team Kids. I have seen discovery and awanas used in the same church at different times, and I must say that the Awana program was much more popular with the children. You will say that it is not about popularity but teaching the truth. Writing your own lessons is grand, but that assumes you have the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Are these lessons tainted by your point of view? Why don't we not accept baptisms from church that use anything but KJV, Discovery, and do not use instruments in church. (I assume the one that wrote this uses pianos and organs in church services, these are instruments by the way) I do believe that pianos and organs were not used in the Bible, but stringed instruments were. Canned music uses these. Let's just ban it all, tear down our buildings, and meet in houses as in the days of the bible. Also, since they did not have bibles back then, we may want to get rid of those as well. This may sound sarcastic, but we do not live in 1950 any longer. Society changes, and we are to meet them where they are becasue they will not meet us where we are.
ReplyDeleteJust curious. You don't have to answer if you don't wish to, but are you Barry Bobbitt?
ReplyDeleteBrother Bishop
ReplyDeleteWhat else do we have in common with protestant churches? I already mentioned some.
False religion's hymns (created by, published by, and used by Protestants)
False religion's commentaries (created by, published by, and used by Protestants)
False religion's KJV study Bibles (study notes created by, published by and used by Protestants)
Also buildings, pulpits, steeples, stained glass, two or three step altars, pews, etc.
When a man realizes how much we use that we DO share in common with false religions including songs and study Bibles being preached out of for our WORSHIP SERVICE and SERMON (the most important parts), and when he realizes there is NOTHING wrong with what we already do, then he must admit his prejudice is not toward common denominators, or things made by, used by or published by other religions, but rather the prejudice is toward other religion "programs".
It ultimately boils down to a dislike for the word "program" when combined with any other religion.
While I (shhhh, don't tell anyone) do not prefer AWANA, I prefer to make my own lessons and programs (and I do for 7th-12th grade and probably will for the K-6th grade as I get the time), there is nothing wrong with it, since the program is full of truth, and from every single bit of the program which I have personally observed and reviewed, there is NOTHING false in it.
Oh yeah, we look a lot like MANY protestant churches with pianos and organs too. We may not look like huge non-denom churches, but we do look like smaller protestant churches such as all the few Methodist buildings I've been in, the few Pentecostals I've spoken with, and I'm sure a great deal of many other small congregations of false religion.
ReplyDeleteLet it be noted the word church means simply "called out assembly". When I say "protestant congregation", I know they aren't a New Testament church, or a Church called out by God, but they are an assembly called out by themselves, and so meet the definition of church. They aren't authorized by God to do anything and their faithful members won't be in the Bride of Christ, but they still meet the definition of ekklesia, which was NOT used only in reference to God's churches, but also other congregations.
jil3, How are you doing? I'd like to respond to something you mentioned. I think the argument that a person who leaves an ABA church will seek out other churches that have AWANA is not valid for many reasons.
ReplyDelete#1 - If your church is training them properly, they will know why we are Baptist and ABA (doctrines, BIBLE doctrines) and they will seek out a church of like belief, not like program.
#2 - If they are seeking out a church that simply holds the same programs or literature, they could very easily end up in a Southern Baptist church, a BMAA church, or more likely, an independent Baptist church who uses our literature and programs (Discovery).
#3 - If they are seeking a church that uses the same program (in this case, AWANA), they may be just as likely to find a doctrinally sound ABA church using it depending on where they move.
younglandmarker,
ReplyDeleteI think we agree whole-heartedly that a seminary which believes and professes KJV only shouldn't sell other Bible versions. We also agree about the false denomination conferences that I will never attend.
But concerning the ABA writers, yes we have many. Yes we have a great deal of them. But they have often chosen to write about controversy of their time. This is b/c they are interested in it. I can find a slew of ABA books about the end times, closed communion, baptism, etc, but very few if any books that seminary courses teach. Those classes that DO have ABA books, we use them. For example:
Seminary Courses with ABA books
1. Bible Analysis by Garner
2. Church History - Church by Clover
3. Missions - small ABA pamphlet
4. Mission Methods - Lynn Rayburn
5. Evangelism - small Evangelism book
6. Bible by Ages - Foreman
7. 2nd half of Systematic Theology - Crain
8. Hebrews - Carter and Crain
9. Gen-Ruth - Crain
10. OT Prophets and Kings - Crain
11. Geography - Crain
12. Homiletics - Gibbs and Kirkland
13. Harmony of the Gospels - Wager
14. Christology - Wager
15. Bible Versions (part of Greek) - Brown
16. Pastoral Counseling - Brown (the other books in this class are used ONLY so you can learn the false ways of false counseling)
1. Marriage and Finance - Burkett
(We are told to use the KJV, and to ignore the errors which are usually pointed out in class)
2. Christian Discipline - Maybe what, 1 or 2 errors?
3. English - Do you really want an ABA author to write an English book? Most of us are southerners, rite yall?
4. Greek - This isn't about Bible, so it doesn't matter who writes it. You want a scholar in the language, not necessarily a Bible scholar.
5. Hebrew - Same as above.
6. Systematic Theology - Theissen (this is used to point out the error of Calvinistic thinking)
These are all I can remember at the time being.
Finally, remember the seminary isn't taught by books. The teachers instruct the class, and they do so out of their own study, not the books. Also, every instructor teaches out of the Bible, which is perfect. He expects each student to study the Bible. If they do, they will know the falsities in the books that they use out of necessity. If they don't, is it really the seminary's fault? You can ALWAYS find something you disagree with in ANY book save the Bible, even if the author is ABA. Probably even if the author is you, you could find something that sounded wrong. Most of these books have been reviewed, and of all the possible book choices, these are the best for the purposes.
James,
ReplyDeleteI'm going to post a quote from the book we used in Christian Discipline (we discussed it in class so I'm not bringing up something that wasn't already brought up in person): "The twelve men who followed Jesus Christ and and later launched the church that bears His name were are curious and unpredictable group. There is not one of them (with the possible exception of Judas Iscariot, who, it has to be admitted, appeared to have a mind for practicality) I would have picked to lead a movement like the one Jesus clearly had in mind. No, I would not have picked any of them. But Jesus did, and His choices, Judas excluded, are unimpeachable." page 28, Ordering Your Private World by Gordon MacDonald.
1. The apostles did not launch (initiate) the church. Jesus did during His personal ministry, and the only thing that happened on Pentecost was not the beginning of the church, but the empowering of the church, which Jesus did by the Holy Spirit.
2. He says that all of Jesus' choices for the apostleship were unimpeachable, except Judas. To make that statement even clearer: The choice by Jesus of Judas Iscariot as an apostle was impeachable. Basically, the author said that Jesus made a mistake. Are these things what we want to study?
There are a lot of errors in the Bible Survey book we used. In some measure a textbook can't have enough disclaimers even if it is every day in class to keep some from being misled by false statements. If they were mature spiritually and could discern error, perhaps not - but usually seminary students are young and very impressionable.
ReplyDeleteYep this is Barry Bobbitt. I am answering the post from above. I just feel that sometimes we judge others when we are not in their shoes. Just like Bro. Acker said, his mission voted for Awanas. He can either leave or make the Awanas match the Bible. Since he is the missionary, and God laid it on his heart to start the mission work, he has to go with what the mission voted to do. If we were preacher controlled churches, we could institute whatever we wanted. I hear and see a lot of people talk about the SBC. Do I agree with everything they do? No. Do I agree totally with the ABA? No. We have state mission money going to pastors of churches. I do not agree with this. But we talk about how bad they are and what they have done and what they do, yet we accept their baptisms. I'm just saying. Each church can do what it pleases, if it is not for you do not do it.
ReplyDeleteBrother Bishop
ReplyDelete"usually seminary students are young..." - Not in my experience. Maybe half are, but not the majority. Besides this, in Bible Survey, we used Foreman's book which indeed DID contain much error. But it is an ABA book, so the proof is in the pudding. I know that doesn't apply here, but I was thinking about pudding.
Brother Landmarker,
When you read the entire page or two of the quote you mentioned, you see what the author was saying.
First of all, in a way, the apostles DID indeed launch the church forward. A boat can be built by me, originally sent out by me, but as the boat goes about on the sea, the captain(s) can launch it forward or back, dock at port, and launch out again.
Concerning the Judas Iscariot comment, we've discussed this before. The entire page refers to "if the author had chosen" or if we by logic had chosen the men, we would think every disciple of the 12, except Judas, was impeachable since they weren't practicle like Judas. The author is saying that while the world might impeach 11 of the 12 disciples for being less than worthy of being the first disciples, Jesus chose them anyway. This is both a valid and good point when you read it in context with the rest of the page.
Scripture reference about the apostles playing a major role in the "launching out" of the church (not building or original sending forth) is Ephesians 2:20.
ReplyDeleteEphesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
I wonder what errors were found in Foreman's book - - or is it simply a non gap opinion toward a writer who is a gapper?
ReplyDeleteWhat AWANA is teaching our children is that it is OK to go outside the truth to get what is popular if you want. The precedent is really bad. May as well be teaching life lessons from Mayberry. I just heard of an AR ABA church using Lucado material for Sunday School.
ReplyDeletei am glad I dont have any of that Protestant stuff here. Really, do you use pianos, study bibles, altars, pews, pulpits, etc? Oh wait we do have about 20 Heavenly Highway Hymns, but you have convinced me to remove those as well.
ReplyDeleteAlso in response to "Barry". The Bible has never instructed and for that matter God still does not instruct men to start missions. His command if for starting churches. I would hope that bro Acker is intending on a church and not at mission as you stated.
Also the bible teaches supporting churches and not missions, so there should be no problme supporting pastors as well as "missionaries". It is funny that men and churches are penalized for starting churches as the bible commands, but if a man decides to remain a "mission" for 20 years, usually (i say always) for money, we still support that.
Bro. Mike,
ReplyDeleteI agree wholeheartedly with you that starting a mission rather than a church is a surrender of a congregation's authority to another: we have discussed that. However, it's out of line to say that missions are started for "money". The motivation for a mission is so that the young congregation will not be led astray doctrinally: in that aspect, although I disagree with the scripturality of the methodology, it makes sense to me, especially from what I see in our work today.
Bro. Barry and Bro. Acker,
There are two groups of saved individuals: the local, New Testament (Baptist) church, and then those who are truly saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone apart from works or ceremonies (not just everyone who says Lord, Lord) but are in a false church or not part of any church: the family of God. This AWANA statement (which is part and parcel the universal church teaching) is a third monster altogether. It is not just a matter of semantics (wrong terminology). This kind of teaching leads to pulpit affiliation, open communion, alien immersion, other forms of ecumenism, and eventually to a one-world church.
Bro. Barry, personally I would not want to attend or see my money go to an institution that teaches that heresy.
Brother Bishop
ReplyDeleteHow is AWANA any different than going outside of truth to use Heavenly Highway, "In Spirit and In Truth" or any of the other non ABA hymnals.... or even using those songs in the ABA hymnal (probably all of them) that weren't written by people who believe like we do in the 21?
Younglandmarker,
ReplyDeleteI agree that the universal church doctrine that is described in the Awana doctrinal statement often becomes the gateway for the false doctrines and practices you mentioned. It only becomes that gateway should the pastors and teachers choose to use it as such.
Since the universal church is not in the material we are using (it's in the organizations doctrinal statement, but not the book), and since I am the pastor, missionary, whatever you choose to call me, (the congregation calls me pastor, everyone else, missionary), and since all teachers are closely tied to myself, I can assure you that Grace Pointe will not go that direction.
You probably think that I am playing with fire and walking a tight line... and trust me, I am aware of the dangers here, I will add that I am teaching the truth, and I am teaching that God's Word is the final authority, not literature.
Bro. Mike,
Grace Pointe has not organized (no adopted doctrinal statement, and no covenanted agreement), thus we are not really a church. That being said, our "members" are not members of the sponsoring church (I'll have a hard time explaining that and explaining why the church is local/visible only). Therefore, we have no formal membership roll AT THIS TIME. So, our congregation referrs to Grace Pointe as "church", many others referr to it as the "mission."
Once I teach them the doctrine, and we adopt the doctrinal statement and a covenant, we'll be organized, and thus a true NT church. That is the goal, a self-supporting church, which means my goal is also to get to a point where we no longer rely on missions funds.
I guess I was not clear. I do not mean that missions is for money, although it can be sometimes an unwanted side affect of the current missions structure. I was specifically talking about the ones that are "missions" for long long periods of time. I had a missionary come to our church with 80+ members in a field he had been at for 12 years. He said the Lord had not led on his heart to organize until he gets $400,000 to build a building.
ReplyDeleteBro Acker, I would like to discuss your mission some time. I think I might like where you are going in how you are currently structured (to some degree). It is very hard to teach a local visible church when we are in a sense giving a picture of a universal church in how missions are done. Bro Coulter and I have both run into this situation on the field. How can you teach on the local "independent" body and the Lords Supper when you cannot partake because you are members of another body days away?
I am not sure if your way of handling it is the best. But I do like that you recognize the dillema and are trying to address it.
Most just ignore it.
BRO. younglandmarker,
ReplyDeleteI had to make a choice. I already had a bachelors degree, and it would have taken me at least 6 to eight years just to get my Master's at TBI. I love TBI, but I will have a Master's degree in two years, and a PhD in another three. I am also very physically limited in what I can do if I pastor a bi-vocational church. I needed an accredited degree in case I need outside employment. Also, I lose a lot of scholorship money each year I am there because of my beliefs. (after fall semester, it will be about 6200.00 dollars) I am a local church, closed communion, KJV preaching, ABA doctrinal statement swearer byer. I have had offers from SBC to pastor, but the difficulty of the situation was what we are talking about. Awanas only opens the door to the other things if allowed. A preacher cannot stop it from happening, but a preacher can leave and find another church. We must make a stand, that I agree with. We cannot hang out hats on any program and hope that it will take the place of what we are supposed to be doing.
Brother Bishop - the Foreman book contained his own translation of the Bible in many places to prove points that the KJV didn't support. His retranslation is enough to call the book flawed, but even worse, he did so to prove points the KJV (Word of God in English) didn't support.
ReplyDeleteJust so you know, I wouldn't reject a book as terribly flawed just for something like gap theory or pre-trib, unless that is what the entire book was about. I'm much more sensible than that.
Yes YEs YES!!!
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the book by Foreman. I had a problem with his long detailed flaws on creation. Also his use of his bible version. But if you say such things many ABA'ers will attack your and accuse of blasphame. Same thing with Albert Garner's books. You are not allowed to disagree with certain men.
If a man (Foreman) cannot use God's word to back up his belief and has to come up with other versions, there is a problem. I do not care if you are a KJVer or not. Stick with a version whatever it is if you are going to be teaching. You see this in most "christian" books, that the author needs to borrow from many "versions" of scripture to make his view work. Some how with these types the NKJV gets one verse right, the NIV another, the KJV another, and NASB another. Luckily we have such authors to tel the world which is right in which cases, and they always happen to back up his view.
Bro. Mike,
ReplyDeleteI agree with starting churches. But in our work, we encourage the starting of missions to become churches. I agree that the bible does support starting churches. If we are going to pay pastors, then we need to call it what it is. They are not missionaries by definition but pastors. There are many men who pastor and work secular jobs. The churches they pastor are not in the place to support them. That is what the state of Texas MBA is doing, supporting pastors. What if all of the bi-vocational preachers in the state of Texas applied for missionary status. Remember these are churches, and we whether we like it or not say that missions are to become self supporting churches. I also do not agree with missionaries being on a pension fund from the ABA. I believe there are two kinds of missionaries. Those that intend on starting churches, and those that like the attention given to missionaries. Some men can plant a church, and some men can grow a church, and some men just want to be noticed. The church I just resigned from as pastor still supported the state work even though we did not agree with everything that is happening. Why? Because we still wanted men like brother Acker to receive salary. I went to seminary with Bro. Acker for a short while, and I for one do not expect him to be in mission status long.
Just so you know, Brother Woolley was a gapper, a pre-tribber and definitely ultra-conservative (not negative, just letting you know his stand) but he often pointed out things to which he took serious disagreement in the Foreman book. It was almost every other class we ran across something flawed. I can't remember the specifics, but if you'd like me to go back through it, I am good at analyzing books for non-Scriptural content. I could probably do that with my own writings too, if I were unbiased.
ReplyDeleteBro Barry, Only God can grow a church. I agree not every missionary is one for the right reasons. Only God can sort that out. It's not a perfect system, but its been hammered out over the years and its the best we have.
ReplyDeleteBro James, I consider teaching material and songbooks apples and oranges, but I do believe the songs used should be scriptural. Thanks for the information on Foreman's book. I will go back and reread it with that in mind.
Do you only believe teaching material and songbooks apples and oranges because it would be detrimental to your position if you were honest? Ha ha, just kidding. Compliments on a 60 comment post.
ReplyDeleteOn the more serious side though, how is a songbook with some heresy written by false religion printed by false religion and used by false religion better than good literature with only truth printed by false religion?
After all, aren't part of the purpose of songs teaching? Isn't this one of the HUGE reasons traditionalists won't use modern songs, b/c they don't "teach" the same doctrines (for example: the misconception that they don't use the word blood, or the misconception that they don't talk about salvation by grace through faith, both of these being excuses traditionalists use to stay away from newer songs)?
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
So it's okay to teach eachother out of a false religion's book of teaching songs b/c it is tradition, but it isn't okay to teach children how to memorize Bible verses with a false religion's program of memorizing Bible verses, because it isn't tradition. Does this pretty much sum it up? If not, explain why. :-) Love ya brother. By the way, keep praying about that one thing we discussed please. It is something weighing heavy on my heart, and probably will until a conclusion is made within the next few years.
Is the HHH really printed by false religion? I thought it was a for profit non religious printing company (?), the HHH2 by Singspiration.
ReplyDeleteAt SW camp, we had only 3 1/2 hymns all week. Why do kids stand up for a chorus? (without being asked to do so?)
You got me, you are probably right about it's printing. But it definitely has many hymns we sing created by and originally published by false religion. All kinds of protestant artists.
ReplyDeleteMuch could be said about modern literature also, published by profit non-religion oriented literature (not in reference to AWANA).
By the way, concerning camp, I don't know if it still is, but Louisiana Camp at the Bogg (my absolute favorite time of the year back then) was extremely conservative with mostly hymns. As to why they stand up for a chorus without being asked to do so... I don't know. Our kids never do that. Of course, our worship service is very structured and ordered with our kids. Our rhythm guitarist and vocalist acts and speaks much the same as our Sunday morning song director (with a microphone as the exception.)
By the way, we just began our Doctrinal lessons on Wednesday evenings. I'm not doing them in order, but we began with baptism tonight. The students really learned and payed attention. Thanks for the encouragement in one of your previous posts that weighed on my heart about doctrine. We've been heavily focused on salvation and living a Christian life (which is equally important to doctrines), but now we are changing course a bit. My goal is to eventually have a 6 year course (7th-12th grade) of lessons that alternate each 4 or 6 weeks between doctrine and Christian living.
Had to let you know this also. About the same time you mentioned preaching doctrines in sermons, we had the Lord's Supper. A newer church member we baptized a few months ago from the youth group brought a pie to church for it. This is something that really let me know I'd missed something in teaching somewhere. It was all good, b/c Brother Joseph preached about the LORD's Supper before we partook and explained it. She gave him the pie afterward and told him to take it home and eat it. Is that even slightly funny?
ReplyDeleteShe won't have to give up any wrong ideas about LS because she obviously knew nothing about it.
ReplyDelete