Saturday, February 20, 2010
Preachers and Preaching
Why are there so many preachers and yet so many churches without pastors? In AR in the state assoc. minute book, the list of preachers is longer than the list of pastors. Could it be preachers are doing other things and considering their ministry a secondary thing? As I understand the call to preach, it includes a desire (burden) to pastor a church. 1 Tim. 3:1. 34 years ago when I started preaching, preachers still believed it was the greatest honor in the world to pastor a church. When young preachers got calls to go preach, they didn't worry how far, how many were attending or how much they would get, they were ready to go preach. Where has such a love for preaching gone? I'm sure all are not that way, but it seems more and more announce a call and find it too much sacrifice to interrupt their good time schedules to go preach. God's Word reminds us all to preach in season and out of season. Preach the Word. Prepare to preach. Go preach. The call of God requires nothing less.
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Could it have to do with the parental guidance that instructed most preachers to do what they were called to preach before?
ReplyDeleteGlad to see you back on the blogosphere after your lengthy hiatus...I am not sure if Bro. James is serious with his answer or not but I dont think that is the reason...
ReplyDeleteI would call into question the phrase you made, "As I understand the call to preach, it includes a desire (burden) to pastor a church. 1 Tim. 3:1." This verse of scripture states that it is the MAN which desires the office of Bishop. Nowhere does this mention that the "call" to preach means a call to pastor.
Why are there many preachers instead of pastors? I am not sure to be honest. I know that there are many young men who are not knowledgeable enough nor prepared enough to pastor one of the Lord's Churches. It is such an awesome responsibility they know they need more preperation.
On the other hand many more senior pastors do not feel physically able and in some cases are even to disconnected from this present society thatthey feel as though they can no longer succesfully pastor one of the Lord's Churches.
Other reasons could be that they have a burden to work in another ministry for the Lord's Churches. Like teaching in a seminary, working in a minsitry of their local NT Church like a seniors ministry or an outreach ministry or just being a faithful servant to a young pastor as a mentor or some other role.
As I see it...some are hanging on and hanging in and they are a great example to me. Others who no longer pastor have served the Lord well and still deserve our respect for thier labours.
2Ti 4:1-5
ReplyDelete1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Perhaps some of the answers can be found in this scripture.
Preaching, either as pastor or evangelist, requires not only an extreme amount of focus and effort, but it is a "lifestyle" of faith and trust in the Lord.
The Apostle Paul urged Timothy to "preach the word"; in times prepared and ready, and times when we just don't "feel like it". Preach it and preach the fulness of it, even if the message is not popular or appealing to the listeners.
I am extremely thankful that there continues to be found brethren that are faithfully committed to their calling. It behooves us to be mindful that this is a "calling" and not simply our personal choice as a vocation. Our very heart must be centered upon the Lord's will in this work.
I am well aware that many churches have preachers in attendance that seem to have no place to preach. Is this the Lord's fault? I believe not. While there are circumstances that may be beyond the preachers control, i.e. a call to pastor from a church. The responsibility remains upon each preacher to honestly search and understand the Lord's will for their personal area of work in the ministry and then go do it.
(I ask your patience as this is my first attempt at posting)
The desire to do the work of a bishop (pastor) is a God-given desire that reflects the call of GOd for a particular man to preach the Word. I see a subtle strategy of Satan turning God's called preachers away from pastoring churches, Without a shepherd, the sheep of a particular church flock are eaasily scattered. If a man feels he is satisfied with a nominal service as a preacher, he should reconsider the call of God to do the greatest work on earth, to pastor a NT church. If Satan gets God's preachers to turn aside, it is easier to get church members to turn aside. The work of GOd is hindered in such cases. I'm sure the excuses given above apply to many. Yet, God never leaves himself without a witness. God's called men need to be about the work of pastoring churches as God gives opportunity.
ReplyDeleteI agree with so much that has already been said, but I would like to add a new angle too. Of course, what I am going to say does not relieve a God-called pastor/preacher from his God-given responsibility, but it surely does not motivate, or encourage, him either.
ReplyDeleteThere are many pastors/preachers that have been really hurt by a church, or maybe even churches. Often, they have served faithfully, yet a church has really hurt them. So, many have somewhat given up. Now, as I said, this does not excuse them for not doing what God has called them to do, but I think it may be a reason there is a problem.
Is this the only problem...NO! But I thought I'd put it out there since I am starting a series concerning some of these issues on my blog (www.ebenezermbc.blogspot.com).
Brother Richard C., welcome to posting in the blog world. Good to hear from you.
ReplyDeleteWith Big J, I disagree with you, Bro. Arch Bishop, that the call to preach is specifically a call or desire to be a pastor (at least not in the modern sense). It is quite possible to just preach as an itinerant preacher or missionary and never pastor a church. We see this in the New Testament as well as in Baptist history. I don't see how a New Testament case can be made for this specialization. "If a man desire the office of a bishop" implies some preachers may not desire or be called to it. I also do not believe claiming pastoring a NT church is the greatest work on earth is particularly helpful, and certainly appeals to the pride of man. Paul said, "he desireth a good work", not "the greatest work on earth". The greatest work on earth is individual to each Christian -- to run the race that God has set before you.
Why are there so many preachers and yet so many churches without pastors? I don't think there is a 'one answer fits all'. There are some churches, even among Baptists, that are not scriptural churches. Would God send them a pastor, or is it more likely they will have to get one by natural means? There are some preachers, even among Baptists, who are not called by God. Would God send them anywhere, or will they have to get there by natural means? So there are excess churches and excess preachers, which, if we could see into hearts, should be struck out of the equation altogether. Yet even if these were not considered, there would still be NT churches without "true pastors" (not hirelings who flee when the wolf cometh). There are preachers who consider preaching or pastoring secondary. There are also churches who create unbiblical standards by which to measure pastors. The biblical standard is found in I Timothy and Titus. I know of one (yes, ABA) that did not call a highly-esteemed pastor and evangelist because they deemed his speech was too "countryfied". (That's not the way they explained it, but that is exactly what they meant.) We could probably go one multiplying all sorts of reasons on one side or the other.
This is not a new phenomenon; there have always been preachers who fell by the wayside for one reason or another. And there are still those who don't worry how far, how many are attending or how much they will get.
Bro. Matt, you have hit on a real problem. I have known of preachers hurt in just that way. Young preachers need an older Barnabus to help them, to encourage them and to advise them if they will let them.
ReplyDeleteA man that is called to preach and has no plan for him to serve--why would he even acknowledge the call? When God calls a man, He has a specific work for him to do.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that doesn't help is when older preachers (whether pastoring or not) question a younger brother's "specific work." I can't tell you how sick I was of hearing people tell me I wasn't fulfilling God's will for my life when I was TOTALLY 100% in line with God's will. Youth pastoring (call it associate pastoring or something else) is where God led me. I know it was. I don't have to defend it, because I know. Yet others claim youth pastoring isn't pastoring. I've been told many cruel things about how I'm out of God's will, I'm harming churches by not pastoring, God has something "bigger and better" for me as though my position was small. I was belittled and insulted. I never let it discourage me from the work though, because it was where God wanted me, despite what others said. The thing it DID do, however, is cause me to study the subject to be sure my "feelings" of what I knew were God's will weren't just of my own design.
ReplyDeleteIn depth study proved almost every reference in scripture to a particular church's leadership showed elders in the plural usage. Churches had elders, plural. Not only did my knowledge of complete peace (when right with God) let me know I was where I needed to be, but Scripture time and again affirms multiple pastors of each church. To some churches, he gave pastors and teachers (Eph 4:11), to Jerusalem He gave elders (Acts 11:30, 15:6), to other churches He gave elders (Acts 14:23,) To Ephesus He gave elders (Acts 20:17). To Timothy at Ephesus, he told that the elders who ruled well should be counted worthy of double honor (1 Timothy 5:17). Titus was commanded to ordain multiple elders in every city (Titus 1:5). James 5:14 commands the sick to call for the ELDERS of the church. Peter exhorted the elders among those churches scattered throughout the area (1 Peter 5:1). In Philippians 1:1, we find bishops (plural) at the church at Philippi.
There is no doubt that most churches, if not every church, contained multiple pastors/elders/bishops. The question arises in how they worked. I wonder if we said we should appoint deacons to specifically care for a group of Mexicans in our church, how well it would be received. Yet is this not what happened in Acts 6? Were not the deacons given a specific task to help the Grecian widows alone? This is what the Bible teaches with anything afterwards only speculation. So we find it isn't against God's will to allow certain deacons to minister (physically) to specific groups of people. I would conclude a principle then,(in my opinion) God does not consider it unjust or wrong to assign certain helps to specific groupings of people based on the specific need.
Now, notice the apostles at this time said they should not leave their studies to do such, but should continue preaching. It only makes sense to me that since almost all these churches had multiple bishops, that it would make sense they took different groups of people to bishop together. While Catholic history reveals (not the Bible) that Peter was the "head Bishop", we have no reason to believe that all the apostles and elders preached at the same time to the same group of the church. It would make sense for church members to be more familiar with one particular elder or apostle than to go to all of them.
So while I don't know all the specifics as to how this happened, and it is mere speculation, it is important to mention churches had multiple pastors who served probably however God and those churches led them in pastoring-overseeing-shepherding those churches.
Also, please do not suggest that EVERY church mentioned in Scripture had so many members that they had to have multiple pastors. This is pure speculation, and can ONLY be applied to Jerusalem biblically speaking.
Now, on to the call. I've been called to preach since age 12. I had a desire from God of which I could not rid myself. This desire has never left. Once, God led me to pastor a small elderly church as the sole pastor (or head pastor, or senior pastor, or whatever man's term you may give it). God then led me to pastor (oversee, under-shepherd) two churches. I probably actually did more overseeing and shepherding (leading to feed on the Word as well as protecting from the dangers of modern thinking and false religion as well as overseeing the overall general direction of the specific members the church entrusted to my leadership) than I did pastoring. It was harder, more work, requiring more study, more hospital visits, etc. While I under the leadership of the pastor and submitting to his authority, I still pastored, just as I pastored Shiloh under the leadership of Jesus alone.
ReplyDeleteI say ALL of this for one single reason. Please don't look down upon men who are in associate pastor positions, or youth pastor positions, or senior citizen pastor positions, or "left side of the church" pastor positions. So long as they are regularly studying, preaching, leading, overseeing, and protecting, they are indeed fulfilling all definitions of the words pastor/bishop/elder. It isn't that they aren't pastoring, but rather than people "think" they aren't. And this "thinking" isn't from Scripture, but rather a pre-conceived notion taught them by others not from Scripture, since the Scripture does not mention this ideal. Idealism without Biblical evidence is a great danger, because it can be strongly believed and difficult to disregard.
This does not answer the question, totally. It does take some of the heat off of those who are pastoring, just not in the way people like to think. So to answer the question, here is my best guess.
To agree with the others:
1. Some are hurt.
2. Some aren't God-called.
3. Some are out of God's will.
4. Some churches aren't in God's will.
5. Some churches put strict limitations on who they call.
6. Some, perhaps, don't have proper health.
7. Some, perhaps, are not prepared.
I'd like to further discuss and close on #7. God called me at age 12. Would you have considered me out of God's will for waiting to pastor until after beginning seminary at age 17?
Please explain the call to preach. Where is that particular call found in God's Word?
ReplyDeleteCan we find justification for more than one elder or bishop at a specific church? I think so?
Mr. Charles, I cannot speak to your call or your experience. Please show scripture for your proofs.
You must have missed it. Re-read my first part of my most recent post.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just do a concordance search for "elders", "bishops", "pastors", or "apostles". You'll see it more than simply what I said. The idea of a single pastor actually isn't 100% clear in ANY scripture. The closest which comes to it is the Rev "angel", however there is strong evidence supporting the angel as a church letter-reader. A message man. Either way, it doesn't nullify the multi-elder in almost every other reference of an elder in a single church in the Bible.
Call to preach is in Scripture with Peter at sea-shores of Galilee. Church existed in John 1 where you had two or three baptized believers called out by Jesus to follow Him. He said "Come and see" where he abode, and they did.
ReplyDeleteThen, the church members who had already been with him during the woman-at-the-well experience and traveled back and forth with Jesus many places (apparently on and off) went home to continue fishing. Then, Jesus called them out and said "I will make you to become fishers of men". He said he would more-or-less train them to be preachers. This was the call, and they straightway left their nets to follow Him. They quit their secular jobs to follow the LORD's call for their life.
Later, we find the going BACK to fishing, and in the book of JOhn I think it was, we find Him meeting them AGAIN on the sea-shore of Galilee. Again, He calls them to be preachers (fishers of men). But here, we find a slight difference. He doesn't say He will make them to become, or make them fishers of men, but rather says "from henceforth, ye shall be fishers of men". From this point forward, they were preachers.
Later on, after Jesus died, they went back to fishing in John 21. Jesus rose and reminded Peter especially to stop fishing, and get back to the call to preach. "Feed my lambs".
BTW, all above quotes are from memory, not looking up the scriptures. I could be slightly misquoting, I just don't remember.
Sorry,
ReplyDeleteI did not intend to place a question mark in my previous post after " I think so." Yes, I agree that the case for a plurality of elders at one church can be made.
Mr. Charles,
ReplyDeleteI still do not see the case made for "the call to preach." All New Testament churches should correctly announce (proclaim, preach) God's Word, hence, this of necessity involves the members.
1 Timothy 3:1 involves the call to pastor a New Testament church, not just to preach. The scriptures you provided do not convince me.
So, at this point, I have to disagree with you, JamesCharles and Bro. Vaughn.
Bro. Arch Bishop, obviously, we understand that only God knows why men whom He has called are not pastoring. There are probably various reasons. Having grown up in an area where there are many New Testament churches and now pastoring out west, I am acutely aware of the need of men to come to the hinterlands. I can only imagine the need of foreign countries. However, only God can uproot a man away from "the promised land."
What about the Islamic people in New York? Do they not need someone to intelligibly and lovingly communicate the full truth of the gospel where these men would so permit?
ReplyDelete"The Call to Preach", as you put it, it is a desire. If a person is in God's will has this desire, to preach to a church, then how is this in any way not God's will? God has called many men throughout the Bible to deliver messages to His people. To teach the "all things" if you will.
He chose Adam and Eve to teach their children about sacrifices (I assume due to the fairness to Cain). He chose these people to teach their children. He then taught people by calling Noah to preach his message. You know the rest. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, the priests and judges and prophets, the Kings, the apostles, and various church members. Notice in Acts 2, the whole church, men and women, were prophesying. They were all preaching in the middle of a church service. Obviously, church members must have been all trying to preach in the Corinthian church, thus 1 Cor. 14. God told them to preach/speak one at a time.
It would appear John Mark and Barnabas were called to preach, yet John Mark (while he went about preaching with the other two) certainly was not mentioned as a pastor.
These men throughout the Bible must have been called by God to preach the God-given messages they did. Some of them pastored, some were merely church lay-members as we would call them who did not. Some prepared to preach (like Paul for 13 years? and the eleven while they were with Jesus) while others did not.
I close with this. Peter is the best example of a man "called to preach" that I have for this reason and this reason alone. The Bible talks more about him than perhaps any of the other 12. The church was already established in John 1, and Jesus only called out 4 of them at that moment to be "fishers-of-men." We see it further illustrated when they went back to their daily jobs of fishing. Jesus called Peter back to be a fisher of men in John 21, no longer a fisher of fish. He more or less said "If you love me, feed my lambs." GET BACK TO PREACHING TO MY LAMBS!!! Stop fishing, but get BACK TO MY CALL FOR YOUR LIFE.
Peter was then not told just to win lost souls, but to feed the lambs of Jesus. This "fisher-of-men" was called to preach to Jesus' people, even though Jesus was the head "Shepherd/Pastor/Bishop/Elder".
jll3, I am not sure I understand to what you are objecting. I agree that I Timothy 3:1 involves being a pastor. My understanding of what Bro. Merritt was saying is that the "call to preach" is a "call to pastor". If so, there would be no people who rather than settle into a pastorate move about carrying the gospel into places beyond. Perhaps I misunderstand.
ReplyDeleteMight 26:16-20 be an example of a call to preach not related to pastoring a church?
Bro. Vaughn,
ReplyDeleteWhat is 26:16-20?
I guess, Bro. Vaughn, with 1 Timothy 3:1, I see a specific scripture and it involves a specific call. With the idea of "preaching" as we ordinarily use it today, I do not see a specific scripture denoting a specific call.
We hear of men saying "God called me to preach." I cannot go by feelings or experience or what others tell me. The only call, after salvation, with which I am familiar, as far as the New Testament, is the call to pastor. I may be missing something.
Bro. jll3, "26:16-20" should have read "Acts 26:16-20". Sorry about that.
ReplyDeleteAs to the "call" in I Timothy 3:1, where is it? It says if a man "desire the office". Most people who speak of a "call" to pastor mean the offer of a church to a man outside the church to come and be their pastor. Is that what you are talking about? Is there such an example in scripture? Or do you mean something else?
Thanks.
Agreed that every Christian should have a burden to share the gospel (be an ambassador, a witness, etc.).
ReplyDeleteIt seems evident, however, that the apostles and others had a special burden to preach the gospel in public. When I experienced the call to preach, that was above and beyond what I had experienced earlier in my Christian life.
Even though others can't see or verify "my call" or "my burden," there are scriptures to solidify this experience.
In addition to what Bro. James has stated, there is I Cor.9:16 "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel."
Churches have "licensed" or recognized a man's call for 2,000 years, and to believe otherwise, would be to admit that churches have been mistakenly recognizing men's "call" to preach since the time of Christ.
BTW, I experienced the call to preach, not a call to pastor. One often leads to the other (as it did for me), but not for everyone.
Brethren,
ReplyDeleteI respect what each of you have written.
Bro. Vaughn---Acts 26:16-20--is not that the account of an apostle?
To others:
I ask if the context of 1 Timothy and Titus are preacher/church relationship or pastor/church relationship?
Who are the "lambs" to whom Peter was to preach?
Bro. Arch Bishop,
I would think that responses to your post "might" indicate an answer to your question.
Where are the qualifications enumerated in God's Word such as we find for a "bishop" for the "preacher?"
ReplyDeleteActs 8, the deacon Philip was called by God to go to a man and preach, then he was caught away and found preaching at Azotus. A deacon, a preacher, never a pastor as far as we know. It was, however, the Spirit of God who called Him to such a work. Could we not say the same about John Mark - never a pastor but a preacher? Or at least Silas? Or Barnabas? ETC?
ReplyDeleteAlso, the qualifications would naturally be saved, baptized, church member, and willing to serve God, coupled with the call of God. Is there any other such qualifications? I'd assume the qualifications are the same as being called to witness.
After all, the entire church at Jerusalem was found preaching in Acts 2 (men and women alike, prophesying, in a church setting).
jll3, you ask, "Where are the qualifications enumerated in God's Word such as we find for a 'bishop' for the 'preacher'?" On what basis do you presume such qualifications must exist? As for the men, they are referenced in the New Testament. Bro. James gives a few examples. They did go forth and give their lives to spreading the gospel, and they did not have settled pastorates.
ReplyDeleteYes, Acts 26:16-20 is the account of an apostle, Paul to be exact. It is given as an example of one called to preach who was not called to pastor. Perhaps some will desire to exclude it as an example since it is an apostle. I will look forward to those also excluding the apostles as their examples for being "full-time" (Acts 6), for getting paid for being "full-time" (I Cor. 9), and for "church-sponsored missions" (Acts 13).
I would be more inclined to question the terminology "call" than to question a fact I see in the New Testament (that is, men not settling into pastorates, but giving their lives to preaching the gospel in regions beyond). Again, while we question the "call", where is the "call" in I Timothy 3:1? It says if a man "desire the office".
Bro. Vaughn,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. The terminology is "desire the office." However, if we desire to get into exact terminology we can have a lot more fun.
Apparently I am missing some things (that would not be that difficult).
How can we be sure that the men referenced were not elders/pastors?
I have not used "Acts 6, Acts 13 or 1 Corinthians 9" and do not intend to do so.
I am not sure that I would want to use every single instance found in Acts as a copy to be used today. Are we supposed to have another "Pentecost?" Any of the gifts?
I do not presume that qualifications exist for the "call to preach", for I do not see the "call to preach" in the New Testament.
Bro. Charles,
So, will God's Spirit work outside of a New Testament church to call a preacher?
How can we know that "Phillip, John Mark, Silas, and Barnabas were not elders?"
Interesting example, Acts 2, that you use here.
I suppose we believe Phillip was not an elder, because he was a deacon.
ReplyDeleteBarnabas was no elder, because Paul and he left the churches they had established. When they came back, they ordained elders. They only spent very short times at each church, if I'm understanding it correctly (only a few months at most in each city, with who knows how many churches). We know Paul was called an apostle, but we do not have any such designation for Barnabas, John Mark, or Silas. If they were pastors, they did a poor job of it, never being at their own churches.
You asked for examples of people being "called to preach". The concept is men who dedicated their lives to preaching outside of pastoring. These men did just that. We suppose they are "called" because their example was not spoken of in a negative fashion in Scripture.
If they were neither elders of a church, nor apostles, what do you call them? As Acts 8 says Phillip was found preaching, I'll call them preachers. I hope this all helped clear up what questions you had for me. Most likely I won't continue to explain. I don't feel I can explain it any further.
How can we be sure that the men referenced were not elders/pastors? Well, I guess we can suppose that some of them might have been pastors in some of their times of life that are not mentioned (and a few possibly that are mentioned). But what about in the cases where they are mentioned traveling through the Roman world preaching the gospel rather than feeding a flock over which the Holy Ghost made them overseers?
ReplyDeleteEvery instance found in Acts is not a copy to be used today; But, in my opinion, more of it than many Baptists suppose. Modern Baptists to me seem pretty notorious for picking and choosing the examples they like without a lot of rhyme or reason. Are we supposed to have another "Pentecost?" No, we've already had it. Any of the gifts? Yes, the ones that haven't been done away with.
I realize that you do not believe that qualifications exist for the "call to preach" because you do not believe there is a "call to preach". But the import of your question was to at least imply that the lack of qualifications proves or provides proof toward that non-existence. My question was why must one accept that as a logical conclusion.
One comment I forgot. All examples in the Bible, except those which are directly spoken against or described as being time specific and over, are suitable for use today. While not all are necessary (wearing sandals like Jesus), they are certainly suitable.
ReplyDeleteGentlemen,
ReplyDeleteThis subject we have discussed is not one which I would die over. However, I do believe that which I have written.
Bro. Vaughn,
In reading your posts over the past year or two (in Landmark discussion forum), I have definitely come to respect what you write. I always appreciate your attitude and wisdom and knowledge. You always sharpen me. I definitely am willing to listen to what you have to say.
Thank you.
jll3, thanks for the kind comments.
ReplyDeleteThough I am not sure I understand exactly where you are coming from on this, I think you raise questions that are proper to think about. There is a lot of tradition grown up around the "call to preach", "pastor call" and other related things that we often are unwilling to shine the light upon.
I have tried to refrain from too many comments about plurality of elders lest (1) folks think this a hobby-horse of mine, and (2) some of it might move further away for the original topic. Nevertheless, I do think what I feel would be a closer following of the scriptures on the matter might relate to more preachers in one church, yet actually engaged in the work instead of just being there (if that makes sense).
Paul wrote in 2 Tim. 1:11, "I am appointed a preacher." Who appointed him? God did. That appointment constituted the call to preach. He referred to Timothy's call to preach in v. 14. The call was "committed" unto Timothy by the Holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteThank You Bro. Arch Bishop,
ReplyDeleteI for one, believe that God called me to preach the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The conviction was similar to the time that I was saved. Nothing would satisfy until I surrendered my heart and life to that call. I fought it and even after preaching some years would doubted it at times. I did not want to be doing something that God did not want me to do. I did not think myself worthy of such a high calling and I still don't think I am worthy. Nevertheless, I believe God called me to preach His marvelous Word.
But it, in a way, is just like when before I was saved and God was convicting my heart that I was lost. A man by the name of John Blake a member of Central Missionary Baptist Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas, witnessed to me and told me that Jesus would save me if I would repent and believe in Him. In the middle of June of 1960 one Sunday Morning during the invitation I gave my heart and life to Jesus and He saved my soul. At that point I was born again from above. I became His child once and for all, forever. Oh! Praise be the mercy, the grace, and the love of God. Also at the point of faith and the new birth the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit began to dwell within me, in my heart as we say. Thank God for His Salvation. About two weeks later I was baptized and became a member of Central Missionary Baptist Church, Bro. Charles Ashcraft was the pastor at the time.
Now back to the call to preach. Paul wrote to a preacher, Timothy, and told Him by the inspiration of God in 1 Timothy 3:1 (KJV) "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."
Now I know that this is speaking of a pastor and I know that what it says through verse 8 is speaking of the qualifications of a pastor. But I submit to you that the preacher who is preaching and not pastoring should also meet these qualifications, at least he should try. If he doesn't why would anyone believe his testimony and his preaching.
I have studied this verse for years and years, many years, I have wandered about what is the call.
I believe this verse tells us what it is. It is the desire to preach and to pastor. (I believe that is how we know we are called.) From where did this desire come? I believe it is what God puts in a man's heart. I say that because I fought it and fought. If my desire to preach is not put there by God then I don't need to be preaching, I need to be the best church member I can possibly be. But I accept this call by faith.
You see, when God called me to salvation He also called me to service.
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Everyone born again blood bought believer is called to service and God calls some men to preach and probably He called a lot more to preach than answer the call. I have put almost 40-45 years into preaching and I am not much of one and I am not worthy, but I could not live and do any thing else and be happy and satisfied in doing it.
Well this is the rambling of old man but I love the Lord Jesus; love His people, love His church (local, visible) and like Paul I thank God He has put me into the ministry of preaching and teaching the gospel of Our Lord Jesus. I am looking and waiting for His coming again.
In the mean time, I am suppose to be conforming to His image as it says for us to do in Romans 8:28,29. That means to be like Him as much as possible.
P. S. To Younglandmarker, please forgive for never finishing our discussion on Ephesians 2:16. I hope that within the next month I can give you something on that.
Joseph L. Looney II
Gillette, WY
***Preaching Jesus Christ and Him Crucified: ***The only ONE who can forgive our sins:
***The only Way of Eternal Salvation; ***The One and Only Saviour.
And I thought I was done. Sorry 'bout that. Anyway, some scriptures for analysis in their proper contexts.
ReplyDeleteCalled for to preach
Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Sent to preach
Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Preachers living of the gospel
1 Corinthians 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
A man chosen to preach:
Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Preaching as an unmerited gift
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Men commissioned to preach:
Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mark 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
Command to preach:
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Examples of preaching, but not just to the church
Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Peter preaching to Cornelius and folks:
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Much of the discussion on this thread has centered around the "desire" for the office of pastor. I have a question: Does the call of God upon a man's life to preach the gospel necessarily presuppose that man's willingness to accept?
ReplyDeleteJonah 1:1-3: "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarsish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD."
In 1 Corinthians 9:16:17: "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but IF AGAINST MY WILL, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."
Many real-life examples can be given also of preachers who "ran" from the call.
Moses also wandered 40 years in the wilderness away from the call tending his father-in-law, Jethro's sheep:
Acts7:23-34: "And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not. And the next day he showed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? But he that did his neighbor wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? Wilt thou kill me, as thou didst the Egyptian yesterday? Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Midian, where he begat two sons. And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, Saying, I AM the God of thy fathers, the GOD of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled and durst not behold. Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt."
That is what I see the call: God places it in the heart of a man that preaching the gospel is what He would have him to do, whether he has the willingness or not. Properly submitted to and in prayer to God, He will place the desire for the calling, but I don't see that as an irrefutable evidence.
Notice in 1 Timothy 3, that one who "desires" the office must "then" (verse 2) be qualified, indicating that all desires in verse 1 are not of God.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that in the Bible there is a really short of list of God-called offices in the N.T. For example: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; (both offices ceased when the Bible was completed); and some, evangelists; (just a question on this one: would that be the same as what we call missionary or church planter like Phillip?) and some, pastors and teachers..." (Ephesians 4:11)
I just don't see the multiplicity of pastoral positions that we see today like worship pastor, media minister, assimilation pastor, education minister, administration pastor, etc. Not condemning you, brother, but just very skeptical.
He gave some pastors and teachers.
ReplyDeleteHe gave (to) some (churches - individually) pastors and teachers (plural). Check out my FULL list of the use of the words pastor/bishop/elder in the NT on Brother Matt's blog.
I'll post those posts below, so you don't have to look back at them.
ReplyDelete" Sorry brother Hebert. I meant that I only saw you reference one EXAMPLE, and I included these Revelation ones into the same group, since it is debatable. I would like to point out no one has proven these "angels" were pastors as opposed to letter readers. If the history records are correct, most early churches had a man who sent letters, and read leaders to the church. He was the "messanger". His job was to accurately convey the words (literally) and the emphasis or inflection as well. This position was very comman. So these 7 church "angels" could very well have been the church messengers (which appears to me interesting since the word angel means messenger.) While there might be thoughts either way on it, it is purely speculation since the Bible just doesn't say. So we should not use these as our basis.
#2 - Thanks for the Hebrew passage. In verse 7 (both English and Greek) we find one should remember "them" plural who have rule over you (plural). Not remember him who has rule over you. Also it says "their" conversation, not "his".
#3- Verse 17 also mentions a plurality of men keeping watch care over a church. So thanks for that verse also.
And with your "finally" scripture of Timothy, I believe you will find these verses interesting. Let us compare 1 Timothy and Titus.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
(Left him there to ordain elders in every city)
And compare this with the following verses.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 5:16 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Notice Timothy's job, like that of Titus', was to train up the elders there. In 1 Timothy 5:16, we see a singular church. In 1 Timothy 5:17, we see any church member calling for the elders. In 1 Timothy 1:2,3 - we find Timothy charging PLURAL men to teach the Ephesian church properly.
This sounds an awful lot like what Paul and Barnabas did ordaining elders in Acts. But even if it isn't, I don't see how someone could suggest Timothy is the singular pastor of a church, with the obvious 1 Tim 5. reference to a single church member calling for the plural elders of the singular church.
Blogger JamesCharles said...
ReplyDelete" Brother J. Lemme put it into perspective to you. The word "elder" and "bishop" in the singular sense are used only 9 times in the New Testament. Almost all of (if not all of) these are reference to a specific pastor, or the office of such. None of these can be pinpointed as the singular pastor of one church for sure. With speculation, maybe. Without good reason for speculation, though, we find no such cause. Here they are, and I want you to HONESTLY and unbiasedly (not a word, huh?) tell me how many of these suggest a singular pastor of a single church as either an example or a command?
BISHOP (singular)
(1 Timothy 3:1) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
(1 Timothy 3:2) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
(Titus 1:7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
(1 Peter 2:25) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
ELDER (singular)
(1 Timothy 5:1) Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;
(1 Timothy 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
(1 Peter 5:1) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
(1 Peter 5:5) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
(2 John 1:1) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
(3 John 1:1) The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
If you were totally honest as I believe you will be, you will find only three references that possibly suggest a singular pastor. The first refers to Jesus, so we won't include that since we know there are pastors under Him. The next two are the 2nd and 3rd John references. These are up for debate, but let us suppose it means there is only ONE pastor. To which church is it referring? We don't know. There just isn't a whole lot there. As I've said before, the "angel" references COULD refer to pastor, but unless we have sufficient evidence to suggest such, we should not believe it despite how much it has been taught or how widely it has been believed. And except for these two John references, do we have ANY other suggestion of such a thing?
Now, to give you the benefit of the doubt, let us assume you are right. That gives you 7 references with the churches of Asia, and 1 with John (as he prtobably isn't the elder of two churches at the same time).
Blogger JamesCharles said...
ReplyDelete" Concerning the references to plurality of pastors, elders, and bishops (plural), we have 16 references. They are as follows.
PASTORS
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(So, to some churches, he gave pastors PLURAL and teachers PLURAL, or treaching pastors PLURAL as some might say).
BISHOPS
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
(So the church at Phillippi, we find bishops PLURAL and deacons PLURAL). This surely cannot be disputed, that there were plural elders at the single church of Phillippi.
ELDERS
(Acts 11:30) Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.
There are obviously plural elders at the church of Jerusalem.
(Acts 14:23) And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
EVERY single church had plural elders ordained in them. These are the ones Paul and Barnabas left to care for every church. Notice elders here is plural, and EVERY church is collective singular.
(Acts 15:2) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Jerusalem still has elders.
(Acts 15:4) And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Again, plural elders at the church of Jerusalem.
(Acts 15:6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Elders coming together (possible non-specific since it could be elders from different churches, so we don't learn anything for sure from here).
(Acts 15:22) Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Definitely a single reference of one church (the whole church) to the many elders.
Blogger JamesCharles said...
ReplyDelete" (Acts 15:23) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Still elders.
(Acts 16:4) And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
Still the same, plural.
(Acts 20:17) And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
ELDERS of another singular church. Hmmmm, interesting?
(Acts 21:18) And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Non specific. Speculation here.
(1 Timothy 5:17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Speculation here, though I speculate with all the previous scriptures and the fact that verse 16 tells us that the "church" singular should not be charged.
(Titus 1:5) For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Plural elders to be ordained by Titus in every city. Non specific, but if one has to speculate, it is plural.
(James 5:14) Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
One sick person calling for the plural elders of the singular church.
(1 Peter 5:1) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Elders, plural, among these strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.
So, of these, we can be almost 100% sure 10 or more refer to specific instances of plural elders in single churches. We could suggest all 16 do refer to such. I could EVEN say that the singular "elder" and "bishop" references that use an indefinite article suggest a plurality since it is choosing an indefinite ONE out of a group, as opposed to the definite article referring to the one and only one separated from all other ones.
If you include the Hebrews reference you gave, with plural reference to "them" who rule over you, we have a few more.
I conclude with this. I did a complete and total search of the New Testament and gave in an unbiased way all possible references to a pastor or pastors using the words I know that refer to such (bishop, pastor, elder). The word angel is under dispute and so cannot be a deciding factor, but the words elder, bishop, and pastor seem not to be disputed. So without any further explanation, I'll simply say this. The Scriptures truly do speak for themselves, and we'd be best advised to believe them despite what we have been taught, what we have believed, or what we want to believe."
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteIn my last comment using Ephesians 4:11, I was referring to a short list of TYPES of leaders, not singular pastors. You make an excellent point that it seems that a plurality of elders in each church was normative in the N.T. However, if you look at 1 Peter 5, all three terms are used interchangably: "elders" in verse 1 which has been suggested to refer to the spiritual maturity of the pastors, "taking the oversight" in verse 2 which has been suggested refers to their job as managers watching over the spiritual welfare of the church under the congregation and not over them as is prevalent in many independent Baptist churches "neither as being lords over God's heritage" (verse 3), and "feed the flock of God" also in verse 2 referring to the shepherding or nurturing duty as a pastor. IOW, the only difference in today and in the first churches is that there were more than one. I don't really see the Scriptural evidence for the specialization of God's men, especially in other areas beside being ministers of God's Word. Something I didn't mention is that it seems strange to me to see God's called preachers who are leading music (music ministers) instead of preaching or leading a flock or a man who claims he is called of God who leaves his field to join the military. I'm just very skeptical of some things.
I agree with most of that. I don't know if a "music minister" who only leads music is a position of leading the flock, so to speak. Men who leave the ministry to join the military... some just make mistakes. Remember, the ministry can be difficult. It is wonderfully rewarding, but if a man sins and makes the mistake of leaving the preaching of the gospel, then joins a 4 year unalterable military contract, just pray for him. Many times (as with one particular case I know), these men realize their mistake pretty quickly. They find the grass isn't greener, and soon wish they could come back to the ministry at one church immediately.
ReplyDeleteI hope you aren't referring to chaplains. They are usually members of a sponsoring/sending church. They are an extension of that church, carrying the gospel into all the world. They try their best to attend their home church.
The call to preach and burden to pastor are two separate things, in my opinion. When I felt the call to preach, I was twelve years old. It has never left. Does that mean I was supposed to pastor at that age? No. I had no such burden. Also, men called to preach may have done something to be "disqualified" in some people's eyes. Should they stop preaching the gospel? What about witnessing, should they stop? No, of course not. Bible examples of God called preachers who did not pastor as far as we know - Philip in Acts (called to help widows as a servant/deacon, then found witnessing to the Ethiopian, and then found preaching in Azotus, Silas (possibly not a pastor), John Mark, etc.
Concerning music ministers who say they are called to preach, if they don't do any preaching, I don't know what to say about that. I won't say anything negative about these men, but I will agree and say I am skeptical.
As to specialized areas, I do not find anything in the Bible explaining HOW the plurality of elders divided up the work. It doesn't tell us if they chose age groups, or locations of homes, or walks of life, or races (Jew/Gentile.) It doesn't tell us, so we can only speculate. The closest principle I see that might POSSIBLY give a clue is the principle in the Grecian widows and dividing up of the deacons specifically for them. It would seem churches divided up deacons for the specific group of Gentile women. The other Jewish women were already cared for. So if any speculation may be made, I'd say it was divided up by race.
If they did specialize based on the need, then is there anything wrong with our reasoning that a man can help pastor alongside another pastor for certain age groups? Or certain social positions such as married or single?
I close saying this. I knew 100% I was called to help pastor/shepherd/lead/preach to/feed/protect the youth here at Calvary MBC in Hamburg when they called me. It has been a burden placed by God. I've been able to work alongside of and under the leadership of Brother Joseph Pemberton. This has helped our youth group and church grow spiritually. I've done EVERYTHING a "senior pastor" or "regular pastor" does, except with the particular group of the church (and parents of those youth). I have done my absolute best to keep from splitting the church or making it seem like "youth" are one part and "older" are one part. This is a very dangerous and slippery slope that can harm if one does not watch for it.
Anyway, I agree that all who are called to preach should do so. Just remember, someone can preach from a podium, a paper stand, or standing without a stand just as well as he can preach from a pulpit.