Monday, May 4, 2009
New Worship
The old, traditional worship structure thrived for centuries due to it being grounded in a biblical and spiritual perspective. New worship ideas seek to replace a spiritual and biblical perspective in worship with a culture based worship. I heard a seminary instructor say God is not about culture. If churches and preachers turn to new worship based on culture, where does that leave spirituality and a biblical perspective? The aggressive methods of new worship in replacing the old, traditional worship structure actually throws the baby out with the bath water. God has blessed worship from a spiritual and biblical perspective with souls saved, churches strengthened and believers maturing to fruitbearing. Why would anyone think there is value in the culture, emotion, easy believism, singalongs (follow the bouncing ball?) and unstructured service(anything goes) of new worship. Have you ever heard the old motto, "If it ain't broke, it don't need fixin' "? If we throw out the KJV Bible, pews, hymns, songbooks, pianoes, organs, pulpits, sermons, and the gospel, what is left but the chaff? Is new worship good or right because it is new? Neither is everything in old, traditional worship good because it is old. Everything in worship should be from a spiritual and biblical perspective. We need to take a step back and look what direction we are heading!
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my only question is, "What did the congregation say when they added a piano to the worship service?"
ReplyDeleteDid it compliment it or condemn it?
or how about when they went from monthly church to bi-weekly to every sunday church. Nothing changed it just made things better.
I don't think you throw everything out when you add a different nuance(not sure if that's the right word I am trying to say the word pronounced "new anc") to the service.
You can worship the Lord in SPirit and in Truth as long as you are doing things decently and in order...worship is a persons own state of mind at the time.
If all worship is is a "person's own stte of mind at the time," then I can reinvent according to my state of mind whenever I please. All the Protestants would agree with that statement. In spirit and in truth worship is from a biblical perspective, not my state of mind. No matter what I think is good in worship, no matter how many people like something in worship, if it does not agree with Bible, it is not acceptable worship to God - no matter what I think about it.
ReplyDelete"if it does not agree with Bible, it is not acceptable worship to God "
ReplyDeleteAMEN!
What I mean by "own state of mind" is that it is the individual's responsibility to worship the Lord in Spirit and Truth.
Could you explain a little bit more what you mean by "new worship"? Does this mean using a praise chorus versus a traditional hymn? or wearing a pullover and slacks instead of a suit and tie?
I feel that if this is about using different songs we should ONLY sing the Psalms and verses of scripture instead of At the Cross.
I don't think singing a praise song makes a worship service "new". I am sure in a church service from time to time you have sang the Allelujuh chorus. Same words sung over and over. That doesn't make it any different from "I love You Lord".
Another thing that really concerns me is what I hear from those who want to move to contemporary worship: how they are "bored" with traditional worship.
ReplyDeleteThose who are bored with traditional worship are easy targets for those with an agenda of change. The following changes you may have noticed in one church or another (how sad for those where most of these changes have been made):
ReplyDelete1. Change music style, often accepting rock
2. Doing away with hymns and the choir
3. Gettubf rid of the piano and organ for heavt metal instruments
4. Dressing changes to casual
5. No business meeting (leaving the pastor or a few more to handle the business of the church)
6. Doing away with Sun pm or Wed pm or going to small cell groups meeting in the homes
7. Moviong or replacing longtime Sunday School teachers
8. Replace the KJV with new BIble versions
9. Films replace sermons
10. Decor changed so a church no longer looks like a church
11. The word "church" or the denominational name dropped
12. Caslling the church facility a campus.
13. More fun and parties for youth
14. No invitations
15. Removing certain words from teaching and preaching, including unsaved, lost, Heaven, Hell, blood
When these changes have been made, how could anyone recognize a church as a church? They will look and sound like any Protestant congregation.
Bro. Bishop,
ReplyDeleteStick to your guns. I am not opposed to "new" things. A couple of years ago we installed programmable thermostats throughout our facilities...nice. Within the last year we have concreted the majority of our parking lot...sweet.
What we haven't done is been able to discover a "new" way to worship. The act of an individual humbling himself before God cannot be reinvented or improved upon. Either a person bows down before God or they don't.
The questions surround the activities influencing the environment designed for a time of worship. I personally do not care for some of the things being brought into the time designed for worship. I do not care for much of the new music. I do not believe movies, dramas, puppet shows, magic shows or even super-duper singing groups should be mentioned in the same breath as the time at which the Word of God is read and expounded upon.
I do not like casual dress. I ALWAYS wear a suit and tie if the word of God is being taught. Even in VBS. I know one can be irreverent in dress, I have never heard of over-reverent.
To my brethren who have embraced the before-mentioned ideals...I love you. I do wish you had more reverence for the time set aside to worship. But I will not bash you...unless you take at shot at me. Then I will beat you down!!!
Preach it, Bro. Mike!
ReplyDelete"The act of an individual humbling himself before God cannot be reinvented or improved upon. Either a person bows down before God or they don't."
ReplyDeleteAmen I am in total agreement! I am not knocking traditional worship AT ALL! I am a traditionalist myself! With that being said I think Bro. Bishop's list is full of relatives (things that are an individual's choice) and it is full of things that HAVE BEEN changing for years.
#'s 1-4 for example have been changing for 2000 years:
1. change in music (hasn't it changed for centuries) OFTEN to rock...the word often is not a good word to use here it is misleading that ALL who change usually go to rock music. and what music did they sing in the NT...Psalms.
2. Did the Lord's Church ALWAYS have a choir and even have a siong service?
3. The first time a piano was drug into a Church what did people say? That is an instrument that is used in the bars! But it is all in how you play it that makes it a toll that honors the Lord.
4. I agree with Mike that you can be irrevererant but never overly reverent but let's talk about changes in dress at Church...have they always wore a suit and a tie or did they at one time where tunics and cloaks etc. Decency and orderliness are the command for a dress code in a Church...I don't like shorts and flip flops if that is what you are referring too I agree 100%.
5. I agree with you that a Church needs business meetings because the authority is the Church not a group of men or the pastor
6. eliminating services in lieu of cell groups. While I don't agree you know that Churches order of services is a churches decision to set the assembling. If they forsake that then they are in the wrong.
7. moving or replacing ss teachers is wrong if it is done because they are simply older. I agree that this is wrong.
8. This is dead wrong to replace the KJV with other versions. I agree that this is from a lack of study and conviction.
9. I agree... DONT REPLACE...but they can be used in a service to accent the service like an illustration to a sermon
10. What did the Church look like in the NT?
11. I agree that this is innappropriate and misleading..."e won't tell them we are baptist but we will teach them baptist doctrine."
12. Is it ok to call it a facility but not a campus? Isn't that just semantics...we have a church plant it just refers to the design and layout
13. Should we NEVER have fun or an outing for the young people? What about a 90 yr old's birthday party for an excuse to have a fellowship together?
14. I agree that an invitation should be offered and to do away with them is innappropiate.
15. I also agree with this...we can NEVER water down our message!
Brother I love ya and I love your stand and I repect your stand. I just think we can look at things a little bit out of the box from time to time because soem things have changed for the better. We aren't called dipping assemblies any more are we?
Mike don't beat me down...I'm just stating another view point...not bashing!
Bro. Mike, I'm glad to stand by a preacher with convictions like yours. I wish there were more.
ReplyDeleteBrother, your essay has an alarming mix of confusing the Bible and tradition, in my opinion. For example, in one sentence you put throwing out pews, songbooks, pianoes, organs, and pulpits on the same level of importance as throwing out the KJV Bible, hymns, sermons, and the gospel. Perhaps you don't intend it that way, but that is the way it looks. I agree that the old, traditional worship structure grounded in a biblical and spiritual perspective has thrived for centuries. But, for example, we can't seriously equate pianoes as being part of that, can we? There are loads of new worship ideas that reek with sensuality and recklessness. But it is also true that when we try to replace non-biblical traditions that have been around awhile, that which is biblical may actually seem "new" to the folks who are used to tradition. We must keep going back to the Bible to ground our worship and try both the traditional and new by that standard.
ReplyDelete2. Doing away with hymns and the choirHymns are mentioned in Ephesians and Colossians, but what about choirs?
3. Getting rid of the piano and organ for heavy metal instrumentsWe don't need the heavy metal instruments, but what is sacrosanct about a piano or organ?
4. Dressing changes to casualIn regards to dress, casual should mean informal, not dressy, as opposed to formal or dressy. The so-called casual of moderns is more like slouchy and disrespectful. Nevertheless, formal attire as we think of it in church -- suit and tie -- has no particular biblical sanction either. Not too many years ago our old farmers were wearing khakis or overalls to church.
6. Doing away with Sun pm or Wed pm or going to small cell groups meeting in the homesI don't know much about these so-called cell groups. We are either a church assembling or we are not. But Sunday pm and Wednesday pm are fairly modern changes of tradition in our area. Before, they met on Saturday pm and Sunday am, and none on Wednesday that I'm aware of. Our church still doesn't meet on Wednesday pm.
10. Decor changed so a church no longer looks like a churchWhat does a church look like, biblically?
Just wanted to help you see some things you said in the original comment that you may not have meant the way they came across, brother Bishop.
ReplyDelete"New worship ideas seek to replace a spiritual and biblical perspective in worship with a culture based worship" - Do you refer to any new idea to compliment worship, such as AC, Pue padding, larger print hymns? Surely not.
If we throw out the KJV Bible, pews, hymns, songbooks, pianoes, organs, pulpits, sermons, and the gospel, what is left but the chaff? - Surely you don't suggest pews are important to worship? Hundreds of missionaries who can't afford them or get them to fit in their location meet without them. Are they not scriptural? They also may not have pulpits, but only a podeum. They may not be able to afford a piano, and so they only use voices or acoustic guitars or flutes or whatever they have available in their area (culture.) Pianos are a part of our culture, but not theirs so. So why is our culture better than theirs?
The question we all face is how far are we willing to go into the culture? Where and what will we be then if we forsake all to appeal to the world? It seems we can justify almost anything - but the Bible still says "Love not the world" [culture] See 1 John 2:15-17 and then can you honestly say worship is getting more spiritual or more worldly [culturally acceptable]?
ReplyDeleteBro. Vaughn, my comments were based on a brochure entitled "Is Your Church Going Purpose driven? How Can You Tell?" Many may be unknowingly following Rick Warren theology and thinking they are doing what pleases God. A revolution is going on in worship, not for the better.
ReplyDeleteI agree, keep sinfulness outta church, and keep false religion outta church. But don't keep everything from the world out, including pianos, seating, AC, buildings, lighting, microphones, instruments, sitting, standing, speaking, breathing! If we say we are going to totally vanquish anything used in modern false religion or the world, then we can't use nice clothing (for many false religions require their congregants to dress up in suits and dresses), we can't use ANY instruments including piano (b/c many false self-called churches require a piano and only a piano), we can't have bathrooms, b/c those are obviously of the world, and didn't enter the church house until after the churches realized that modern culture had something good to offer.
ReplyDeleteI agree, the question is how far should we go in changing. The answer is, so long as it isn't sinful, against God's Word or principles, and isn't leading down a road of destruction (we all must decide what does and doesn't), and so long as God gives us a peace about it after having met the other requirements, then it is okay to make a change.
If it contradicts Scriptures and Biblical principles, if it is unwise, if we have not well studied the change, if we haven't given thought to where it will lead, or if we have a strong unrest about it, we shouldn't make the change.
I believe this is a Biblical pattern, or at least a way of making decisions patterned after Bible principles.
Brother Mike,
ReplyDeleteI think we are in total agreement. Anything distracting to humbling oneself before God, repenting, seeking His face and submitting to His service should not be included in a designated "worship service". With that said, I don't know what you mean by super duper singers. I'm not even saying you are wrong, I'm just asking what you mean by such a statement.
Brother Merritt, I am with you in opposing the Purpose Driven/Warrenism movement. You are correct that it, and many other new things, are a revolution "not for the better". But we need to be careful in discerning what is uniquely Purpose Driven Church theology and what is not. I looked up the brochure you mention and found it HERE. There is a problem when some of those things are just generically thrown out there as being evidence of PDC. On the Southwest Radio Church web site (which, BTW, is Protestant as far as I can tell), some of the "24 Signs that your church is going Purpose Driven" just aren't signs of that at all, unless they are coupled with also doing some of the things specific to PDC. By themselves some of them are meaningless in relation to PDC.
ReplyDeleteIn your last comment on the "Church Steeples" thread, defending choirs and Sunday School, you wrote, "Nothing in the Bible forbids these tools in worship." This is the same argument that a lot of people are using to add all sorts of modern things that you oppose. We need know to why we believe some additions are OK and some are not, beyond "nothing in the Bible forbids it". That will open the floodgates of error.
One other comment that may seem a quibble, but on #10 I asked "What does a church look like, biblically?" to the comment "Decor changed so a church no longer looks like a church." The reason I asked that is to remind us that to speak of a "building no longer looking like a church" is to inadvertently pick up Protestant terminology and insert it in a non-biblical way. The church is never the building.
P.S. -- I am going to send you an e-mail re the Southwest Radio Church, rather than clog up the thread with something I'd like to tell you.
If it ain't broke it don't need fixed is great! So if you have an original first year model T ford in mint condition would you use it as your main work vehicle or put it in a museum?
ReplyDeleteCulture is not sin!
Change is not sin!
Sin is Sin!
Bro. RL you made some really good points!
Interesting...
ReplyDeleteAgreed that some modern trends in churches are worldly. But I'm confused at the blending of doctrine and custom in some of these comments.
Example: Things like hymn books and pews are custom. I don't believe they had hymn books before the printing press was invented and likely for several hundred years after.
Hoping that I won't be beat down, but it will be worth the drive to Bogg Springs this summer to see a good friend of mine in a suit and tie when the "Word of God is being taught" :)
I did blend doctrine and custom. I was thinking the big picture, not how the list would appear to readers. It would appear some change is not for getting more spiitual, just for getting more modern. Modern does not guarantee spiritual.
ReplyDeletenor does it guarantee anti-spiritual. So if it isn't anti-scriptural, and can help in some way, but poses no foreseeable problems, then prayer and getting a peace about it should be good enough to make the decision (even if there isn't a spiritual plus - for example, changing carpet color b/c the new congregation is 99% decided the old color is ugly, or changing from 70s shag carpet to modern low carpet, or changing the building design from an old 1850s unstable structure to a modern steel framed structure.)
ReplyDeleteThe group who refuses to make updates (the updates that fall into the parameters of non-contradictory to scripture or Bible principles, non-problematic, and peaceful answer to prayers) will surely go the wrong direction, just as those who make changes to make changes, despite God.
I just wanted to share with you all that a few weeks ago, I heard on the radio here that Calvary Baptist Church in Ruston was having a magician come to "prove" whether Jesus was a magician or the Messiah. His act supposedly was going to show the miracles Jesus performed.
ReplyDeleteI was so angry when I heard this. I told people at work, customers, etc...
I can't understand how this church doesn't see anything wrong with this. It is, in my opinion, a complete mockery of our Lord. Furthermore, a magician? I know I don't have to explain that one. How dare him! Who does he think he is?