The issue of women wearing a dress or skirt to worship is actually a tradition vs. culture decision.
Some hold to the man dressing like a man and a woman dressing like a woman.
Some think modesty is on one side, some the other.
Some think casual dress is OK. but where do you draw the line with casual? How casual is too casual?
IMO, women that wear a skirt to worship do so on a spiritual basis (no, they are not more spiritual than others) - for reasons that have to do with reverence. Worship in a skirt is the only way to dress to make a difference between the school, the place of business, the ball game, the concert or the yard. It is a matter of reverence for a godly woman to worship in a skirt.
The choice is actually culture vs. tradition. Which is more reverent - tradition or culture?
While each will ultimately decide for themselves, I would rather follow a reverent tradition than in irreverent culture.
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I hate to be first, but will make a few brief comments and try to get back later. I think you have probably framed this correctly (though I reserve the right to change my opinion after I think about it awhile). But I think this is largely a matter of tradition versus culture, in the sense that traditionally Christian women have worn dresses and not pants. Now I would add they have been wearing pants quite some time now. But my memory takes me back to the early 1960s, and I can't remember women ever wearing pants to church then. Of course, along with that, I don't think I hardly remember them wearing pants at all. Formed in that culture, I certainly prefer to see women wear dresses to church, and really prefer that as a regular way of dressing. Yet I am painfully aware that I have a hard time biblically supporting that and figure to a large degree it is simply a matter of my personal preference.
ReplyDeleteConcerning tradition and culture generally, I think you create a "false dilemma" in that your choices seem to imply that there can only be "reverent tradition" and "irreverent culture". I think there are a lot of variations on that -- irreverent tradition, neutral tradition, reverent culture (the community I grew up in had a culture and it was pretty reverent), neutral culture, et al.
Just because something is a tradition doesn't mean it is bad, or that we necessarily should replace it. But if it is ultimately only a tradition of men, we have little biblical defense for holding it against a new tradition of men. And we definitely should admit it is a tradition if it is.
Someone once said that we ought not remove a fence that has been put up until we understand why it was put there. I think that is good advice. But we probably have mostly missed the boat on that. This fence has pretty well been removed.
Bro. Arch Bishop,
ReplyDeleteDo I read you right that you are saying that women wearing pants is not a modesty issue or a "what pertaineth to a man" issue, but is a symbol of our culture moving away from the things of God (a sign of the times? You again brought up casual dress. Is it your conviction that even laymembers are to dress formally when they go to church? What about jeans and a polo shirt? I myself abhor the "come as you are" philosophy that's sweeping our churches that as long as you come you are alright, even if you are wearing shorts and a bathing suit (Surely they wouldn't take it that far, but I say that for emphasis).
Here's my take on it. IMO, if a pair of slacks, for example, is womanly enough that a man would not wear them (pink with flowers) and does not draw attention to her, then I don't know of a Scripture that would expressly prohibit them. However, as Bro. Vaughn said in his comment, he can't remember women wearing pants before the 1960s. I see them as a symbol of the women's liberation movement. That would be my argument against them. That is not necessarily a condemnation on every woman that wears pants. Many preacher's wives wear them.
I did say that a modest, womanly pair of pants is far better than an immodest dress or skirt, and I still say that. I, though, are not totally comfortable with it, either. My mama has always worn dresses and skirts on an everyday basis. Not many (Missionary Baptists) still do.
Btw, I am totally against and could never justify a woman wearing jeans. To me, there is not enough distinction between women's and men's jeans, for one thing.
you are right except that I believe you don't get that tradition is also culture just old culture...of course the its not so old that it goes back to Christ so your title should actually be
ReplyDeleteOld Culture vs. Present Culture
now the next thing most of you will say is that culture just gets worse and worse and away from God.
Well if thats true lets all just go back and live how they lived when? 1800's , 1700's 1200's 900's see the further back you go the worse it gets! lol
Think about it!
love your little culture war you got going on your blog....To bad you've gotten away from the truth war. The devil is sly....he will have you defending old traditional culture wars and before you know it you're wasting your energy in something that doesn't matter for Christ! This is the same as the social gospel except in reverse its what the Taliban are doing in Afghanistan.
ReplyDeleteBrother Jonathon, even though I disagree with Brother Bishop on this issue, I would have you know he does indeed battle in the truth war, contend for the faith, and he doesn't waste as much energy as you'd think (considering his church agrees with him, so it isn't something that takes much of his time). Since Brother Bishop has held these beliefs for more than 10 years, and for those more than 10 years continued to work diligently serving the LORD, I'd like to say you are completely wrong in your assessment.
ReplyDeleteBrother Bishop, I'd like to say you did a wonderful job of bringing out the heart of the issue, modern times (culture) versus old times (tradition). I would also like to address one comment you made in this post.
You said, "Worship in a skirt is the only way to dress to make a difference between the school, the place of business, the ball game, the concert or the yard. It is a matter of reverence for a godly woman to worship in a skirt."
Many women wear dresses and skirts TO work (place of business) and school (my wife is a teacher :-p ). She does not wear a feminine business suit to the ball game, concert, yard, or anywhere else outside of both work and church. When she wore dresses, she all she wore was dresses to work, she wore those to church. Her reasons for wearing the business suit are as follows...
1. Feminine business suits which fit her right are much easier to find than dresses and skirts.
2. Many dresses and skirts are too short, or so tight they are immodest.
3. She personally believes the business suit looks much nicer, therefore she feels she is dressing her best for the LORD.
Also, the majority of the time at school, she does not even wear the business suits (since her school is lax on standards.) These clothes are purchased mainly for church, and used for the same reason you stated women buy skirts / dresses.
And just in case this comment came across in the wrong way, I want everyone to know I agree with my wife in all points and support her decision 100%. This isn't something she decided to do on her own, she asked me my beliefs and opinions before she made her decision. In other words, my wife is a wonderful wife who does submit (in the Scriptural way) and she isn't bossy or disrespectful to me. She is lovely, loving and I do not deserve this blessing God has given to me.
One last thing. You said skirts and dresses are the ONLY way to make a difference between the church and the yard. I read it again, and it made me wonder how you thought your wife should get to the church, without going through the yard in a dress. :-p Just kidding. Have a good day.
ReplyDeleteThe modesty issue can be argued from both sides - pants so tight they reveal way too much or way too short skirts with way too low scoop necks. Bible does teach modesty. I'm for modesty.
ReplyDeleteThe "what pertains to a man" issue will be dismissed as OT. Both modesty and women dressing like women matter to me. Men should also wear their best. I think the shirts with logos should not be worn to worship. I also hate the "come as you are," but I don't turn them away. I hope they will look around and see the tradition we have and get with the program.
One revival evangelist remarked how rare it is today for a church to have all the women wear skirts and commended us for it. I preached a revival once where the preacher refused to say anything about how people dressed for church and a woman stood behind the pulpit in cutoff shorts to sing a special. If some standard is not encouraged, there will be no standard. Bro. younglandmarker, your mother set the right example before you! There are both preachers and preachers wives who don't care how they present themselves for worship.
As a woman, I feel I have to comment on this subject matter. I respect each and every one of your views on this topic.
ReplyDeleteI do wear dresses or skirts to church on Sunday, however, most of the time on Wednesdays I just wear my work pants because I am going straight from work. I'd rather be dressed up, but then again I am going and that's what matters the most.
I see it this way. When I've gone to a wedding, a funeral, a job interview, I dress nice. If I can do this for these occasions, I can certainly do it for the Lord.
I can not come to church wearing ripped up jeans, a dirty shirt, or the like. I have too much respect for the Lord's house to do so. I know I have better clothes than that.
About the modesty issue. This is a difficult issue because some of the elderly in the church may see a skirt 2 inches above the knee as immodest, but the younger ones may look at it and see nothing wrong with it. Some see a woman showing her shoulders as dressing immodestly, I am thinking "it's just a shoulder." Where is the line drawn at immodesty?
I believe that once a young lady professes Christ, and prays to the Lord to lead her, He will then lay that conviction on her as to what is immodest and what isn't.
Now, here's a touchy subject. Why are we questioning what women are wearing to church? I heard a teacher say once that we should be dressing modestly because we don't want the men in the church looking at us in a disrespectful way. I completely disagree with this because I've learned through experience that most men, (now I said most, not all) are going to look at a woman whether or not she is dressed modestly or immodestly. Now I know what you are thinking, that doesn't give us the excuse to dress inappropriately, I know that. We should be women that respect ourselves enough and the Lord to dress accordingly.
One last thought, I hope and pray that we aren't judging women on what they are wearing. It takes time for us to learn what God wants from each of us, even down to the way we dress.
I also think about the woman who washed Jesus's feet, and Simon was thinking (I'm paraphrasing here), "don't you know what kind of woman she is?" Yet Jesus looked into her heart, he knew her condition. She had come to worship. Period.
I want to clarify my remarks about tradition and culture. Traditions may be good or bad. I think women worship in skirts is good IMO. I would define culture as what is done outside the ranks of a NT church. Who cares if the Protestants wear pants? but a true church should be different. Just because the people in the community around us do something should not mean a true church has to follow the community. If we follow the styles and standards of the world around us, how can we be salt, light or have any influence to speak of? If we follow them, we are just like them and the world can see no difference. We need to dare to be a Daniel and have the courage to be different according to a good, long standing tradition. Why should we give up sopmething good because others change? That makes us thermometer Christians who simply reflect the conditions around us rather than being thermostats who set the standard others should follow.
ReplyDeleteBut was it not culture at one time for ALL women to wear dresses, not only at protestant churches but also in public? So the churches did the same thing as the culture culture did. This shows the true churches were not different back then. They were the same concerning a female's appearance.
ReplyDeleteConcerning being different, I agree. But we ought to focus more on our inward difference than the outward. A modern song by Casting Crowns says "God's gotta change your heart before He changes your shirt." This is true. We ought to also remember many lost people come to our congregation, and the LORD cares 1,000,000 times more about their salvation than He does their dress.
Anyone can justify anything. It all goes back to defending what is being practiced, IMO
ReplyDeleteBeen desiring to ask you for many weeks now, what is IMO? Is it the same as "for example" which seems to be the way you use it? Anyway, just wondering what you thought about a knee-length "church" dress with blue jeans under it (a fashion) for church attire?
ReplyDeleteIMO - in my opinion. Just trying a shortcut, not meaning to be obscure.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Deut. 22:5? I see it as a moral principle, not just a part of the law.
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ReplyDelete