Friday, April 9, 2010
What About Lordship Salvation?
I have heard good preachers use the terminolgy "Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior". It used to be "accept Jesus as your personal Savior." However, there is a vast difference between receiving Him as our Savior and as our Lord and Savior. Luke 2:11 says: "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." To those who are lost, He must be their Savior before He can be their Lord. What did Jesus say in Luke 6:46? "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Therefore, if one must vow to surrender his life to Christ as a condition of salvation and not as a result of it, then he has effectively brought works into his salvation. Making a vow was a component of the Law. "When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD your God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee." Jesus Christ rendered the necessary obedience to make our salvation possible. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righetous." (Romans 5:19). Salvation is by grace alone through faith without any regard to works--past or future. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Not of works, lest any man should boast." (John 6:28) The Jews asked Jesus: What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered them: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (v. 29) Faith is all that's necessary for salvation. Our two best examples are the publican in Luke 18 and the thief on the cross. Do you see in either of their prayers, "I now ask you to take control of my life" that sinners are told to pray today? No. The publican "would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven" and prayed "God be merciful to me a sinner." He felt his helplessness and his unworthiness! What about the thief? What could he promise? Nothing. He was dying! He implored, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." He only wanted to even be a thought in Jesus' mind when He came to reign. He realized that he deserved his punishment. Am I advocating antinomianism, or living just like you want to after salvation? Absolutely not! "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1,2) I am not denying the Lordship of Christ over the believer (the one already saved); there must be a change of the heart of the lost about sin (repentance): but works does not enter into the mind of the sinner coming to God for salvation.
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Interesting point though... the thief on the cross did say "Lord..." I don't think it's so much about the words you say as the thought/intent of your heart. I agree that works should not be brought into any thought for salvation. You pointed this out well. I don't think, however, that just b/c someone uses the word "LORD" in their prayer means they are actually trying to add works. I don't remember the exact words I said. I just remembered wanting, asking, and believing for salvation in Jesus. I could've said "LORD, save me" or "I want you to be my Savior and LORD." I don't know. To be honest, I didn't even know the meaning of the word Christ or LORD. I just thought LORD was another term for God. It was the intent of my heart that mattered, not the word I used. Make sure to distinguish between this when you write an article like this. It will help keep controversy down, and help your article be received with its original intent by a wider audience, since they all may agree with what you are trying to say, but not agree with the way you say it.
ReplyDeleteMuch of the teaching of salvation today centers around "surrendering your life" to Jesus Christ rather than simply recognizing that He is God. One must surely recognize that Jesus was the Son of God. However, even a saved person cannot not make a full surrender. If we could, we would not need Jesus.
ReplyDeleteThen there is the "Repent (turn from sin)" A lot of times this is left vague. This could be very confusing to a lost person.
I hope I made it clear that I am not talking about easy believism and that there must be a change of heart. There must be Godly sorrow over sin which causes one to turn to faith (trust)in Christ alone to save them. They must turn to nothing more.
A vow is a promise made from a willing heart. A vow is not an action. The Law said a vow to the LORD must be repaid.
Then there is what is many today say: "You must make a commitment." We can offer God no such commitment. We are helpless and hopeless. The commitment Paul talked about in 2 Timothy 1:12 is simply a comparison to when one places many in the bank. They deposit, or entrust, that money to the care of the bank.
There must be no regard to works done or to be done in salvation. None. This is not criticism. Notice I said in my posts "good preachers."
Some preachers perhaps get sloppy in their phrasing...."Trust Jesus as your Lord and Savior" when we know that Jesus cannot be "Lord" of your life until He is your Savior.
ReplyDeleteI guess for those who really believe in works for salvation or to see if one day they really are saved, then they could say "make Jesus Lord of your life" and that phrasing would fit their beliefs.
I really don't think too many people consider the difference between "Lord" and "Savior," although they should.
"Just accept Jesus" is a common phrase also, which should be explained more clearly (stressing repentance and faith).
Good post.
When you write "It used to be...", can you please tell me how far back that goes?
ReplyDeleteYou write: "To those who are lost, He must be their Savior before He can be their Lord." Please explain who the "lost" are, and why they need a "Savior?"
When you use the word "repent" do you mean:
1) a change in one's thinking about who Jesus is?
or
2) a change in one's thinking about one needing a Savior?
or
3) a change in one's thinking and attitude about God?
One may argue that " Godly sorrow over sin which causes one to turn to faith (trust)in Christ alone to save them" is a work before "faith."
Just curious jll3....are you a member of a "Church of Christ?" Your questions seem to indicate that.
ReplyDeleteAdrian Neal,
ReplyDeletePlease explain how my questions "seem to indicate" what you ask? Just curious Adrian Neal, I would like to know from whence you are coming.
No, I am not (to go ahead and answer your question.) I do desire Younglandmarker to clarify some of his comments and some of his usages. People do have different working definitions of words and phrases, even among Landmark Baptists.
Generally, Baptists wouldn't question who the lost are nor that people need a Savior.
ReplyDeleteAlso, you stated that "one may argue...that there could be works before faith" (paraphrased). This is a pretty common statement I've heard from Church of Christ.
If that's not what you believe, so be it.
Most people aren't ashamed of who they are or what they believe. Perhaps you could identify yourself.
If this goes astray, Bro. Jonathan, just redirect and this dialogue could be carried on elsewhere.
Adrian Neal,
ReplyDeleteAs a 7th grade teacher, do you ever ask questions to get people to think or to direct them, or maybe to get them to explain themselves better? Maybe you do not, however, I do. As a pastor, I ask questions to get people to delve more deeply into the Word of God. Hey, I myself have much to learn and more delving to do.
An answer to my earlier question "Please explain who the "lost" are, and why they need a "Savior?" might help explain how someone sees "Lordship Salvation" or whatever opposing thought one might have.
Now, actually, you misquoted me or misparaphrased me. You write that I stated the following, when I did not.
Adrian Neal writes that "Also, you stated that "one may argue...that there could be works before faith" (paraphrased)." I was quoting Jonathan from the third paragraph of his first comment after his original post, which is as follows:
"I hope I made it clear that I am not talking about easy believism and that there must be a change of heart. There must be Godly sorrow over sin which causes one to turn to faith (trust)in Christ alone to save them. They must turn to nothing more."
There are probably those who would argue that "to turn to faith" is a work of man.
Now I do not want anyone to misquote me here---I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT Jonathan BELIEVES IN ANY KIND OF WORK FOR SALVATION.-
I, too, do not believe in any type of work for salvation.
Bro. Jonathan knows who I am and so does Archbishop and James Charles, so I am not trying to hide who I am. So, for you to insinuate that I am, is offbase and is wrong.
Neither, am I trying to hide what I believe. I am sorry that you took it that way and that you publicly insinuated this. ---But that is what happens in the blogoshpere.
But in favor of openness for you, I will identify to you and for you. I pastor a Missionary Baptist church in Cheyenne, Wyoming. This church fellowships within the American Baptist Association. My dad has almost the exact same name that I have, so out of respect to him I will not give my name right now publicly on this forum for fear of people getting us crossed. He sometimes comments here. However, I give you permission to ask Archbishop or younglandmarker and they have my consent to give my name to you.
Obviously can't spell "blogosphere" in my previous post---sorry! Oh,well.
ReplyDeleteThat is fine brother. No offense intended toward you at all. But your phrasing of questions were pretty much exactly the way I've heard Church of Christ preachers in debates, both in person and in print, question people really needing a Savior and that the turning towards God in faith is a work.
ReplyDeleteI paraphrased for quickness, yet your direct quote (for anyone reading) is towards the end of Comment #4. And I did acknowledge that you may or may not believe this, as you wrote "One may argue that..."
The author of the post can surely take it from here with who the lost really are or "why they need a Savior."
Best wishes to you.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying everyone that says Lord is following this teaching on salvation. And you make a very excellent point: It is what is in your heart that the Lord is looking at. He knows if you are really sorry over your sins or not. My dad prayed "Lord save me" several times but he was just afraid of hell.
Bro. Neal,
Like I was saying to Bro. James, I don't necessarily believe everyone who has adopted this terminology believes in Lordship salvation. I hope I'm not coming across as a nitpicker. However, there are many places where you find not just the terminology, but the teaching (even in the ABA).
Bro. jll3,
My phrasing was actually a play on words to those who say that you must "turn from your sins". We are undone in our sins and have no power to turn from anything. Faith is in no way a work but an accepting of the gift that God has provided through His Son's shed blood sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary and a trusting of your soul to Him as you would your money to the bank: you leave it in their care. Let me add: There are no works in maintaining our salvation either. 2 Timothy 2:13: "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." It is based upon God's faithfulness, not ours. I really didn't bring that out in my post.
One more thing: It blesses my heart when a preacher makes it plain to the congregation that they can be saved right where they are sitting. People are easily confused on spiritual matters and too many times I'm afraid they think that somehow coming to the altar is part of salvation.
Perhaps some of this debate hinges on what we might call sloppy terminology. As far as I am concerned "accept Jesus as your personal Savior" is as sloppy as "accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior". Might it not be better to stick with scriptural terminology in our exhortations? "Repent ye and believe the gospel." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." While these might be misunderstood by some, they are at least grounded in Scripture instead of words of our own making (and therefore own meaning).
ReplyDeleteAs far as Lordship salvation, this is something I've heard discussed a lot but often with sufficient vagueness as to not really being able to understand what the Lordship salvationists believe. When some insert the terminology "Lord" it might be some kind of "code word". But it also might not mean anything different than someone who doesn't use that word.
I believe that salvation is by grace through faith with zero mixture of works. But when we disclaim obedience, we'd better be prepared to explain verses such as the following:
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him;
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that OBEY not the gospel of God?
Something I found that I wanted to add.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 7:21 says those who enter eternal life are they who do "the will of my father which is in heaven."
John 6:40 says, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Just thought this was an interesting couple of Scriptures that both in their contexts refer to the same general idea of salvation.
Concerning the "repent"... it might very well be that we have to repent from unbelief, but towards God and not just towards faith. To turn (repent) must mean we are turning FROM something to something else, and it can't ONLY be faith, since there is a distinction in Acts 20:21, we find "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." In other words, repentance is a response to God's work, not a work of our own. It can be tied in with faith, but doesn't necessarily have to be faith.
Bro. James wrote:
ReplyDeleteConcerning the ‘repent’... it might very well be that we have to repent from unbelief, but towards God and not just towards faith. To turn (repent) must mean we are turning FROM something to something else, and it can't ONLY be faith, since there is a distinction in Acts 20:21, we find "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." In other words, repentance is a response to God's work, not a work of our own. It can be tied in with faith, but doesn't necessarily have to be faith.”
I assume that in the first part that you meant that doing the will of the Father = believing on him whom he hath sent. I agree with that.
Bro. James, could you please further explain the last part of your comment?
I believe that there must be first conviction of the Holy Spirit, then godly sorrow, and from a willing heart confession of sin, and a begging for forgiveness that accompanies faith (entrusting our soul to Christ for Him to save us), but all would agree that none of these is a work. However, Lordship salvation defined is the teaching that for salvation to be real, Jesus Christ cannot be your Savior unless he is simultaneously the Lord of your life. In order for Jesus to be Lord of your life requires obedience (Luke 6:46) which, if Lordship is made a condition of salvation, then you have in effect mixed works into salvation. Therefore, a vow or commitment to service for a lost person would make in effect obedience or works a requirement for salvation. Not only is a lost person unable and unworthy to make such a promise, but God is not going to accept it. (Romans 8:7,8) Christ has already rendered to God the obedience necessary for salvation. (Romans 5:19) Only we who are already saved are commanded to yield ourselves in service to God because of what Christ has done for us. (Romans 6:11,12) Find this sort of vow or commitment in the experience of either the publican or the thief on the cross. It’s not there. By saying you turn to faith alone, I was simply responding directly to the terminology that repentance is a “turning from sin.” This is many times either left vague or it is very highly implied that a turning from sinful behavior must take place in order for salvation to occur. I think we all agree that a sinner must turn to God.
I understand that perhaps not all who use the terminology “accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior” is an advancer of Lordship salvation, but it’s of great concern that the terminology as well as the teaching is out there, even in ABA circles. One prominent preacher made the statement in an ABA publication that “salvation is a vow.” I will go so far as to say that is hogwash. It is worth considering, also, how this terminology came to be used by our men. It is becoming more prevalent. I am not aware of everything that goes on around the whole work, but I have begun to notice it more within the last probably 15 years.
Hopefully all that is clear as mud and I didn't ramble too much.
Is it God's will for you to be saved? Did He command all men everywhere to call on His Son for salvation? If so, then is this not obedience? Is this not the "doing the will of the Father" referred to in the verse I mentioned? While it isn't necessarily surrendering to work for the LORD in the future, isn't it obeying the LORD and being obedient to Him, an act of humility and or submission to Him as LORD? Isn't this why the thief on the cross said, "Lord..."?
ReplyDeleteConcerning terminology, I agree 100% with you. I am in agreement about salvation as well. I am, in fact, just making sure you hone your terminology in arguing against this other terminology. I am not arguing with you, just poking at you.