Wednesday, July 8, 2009
Rude and aggressive spirit of clappers
The ABA messenger meeting had more clapping than ever. It has been on the increase the past few years. In the past, I have seen a couple of young preachers be very in your face with their clapping antics. I have seen church members of clapping churches that acted very aggressively at youth camp and at other places. The rudeness of clapping to rub it in when someone lost a vote at the messenger meeting revealed an attitude problem. The subject of clapping in worship should be reexamined from the Bible. There are 9 references to clapping, none of which involve true worship. When people seek changes to worship such as clapping, they try to steam roll over all who don't jump on the bandwagon. Why clap? to give God a hand? (He doesn't need one) to appreciate a performance? (Special music even by little children is not a performance) to have a more interactice worship? (Get the flesh involved in what should be a spiritual service) Why clap? to give the devil a means of watering down true worship.
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I have seen two types of clapping in churches (neither of which I care for) -- one is like giving a hand for a performance; and the other is like keeping time to the music (if that makes sense).
ReplyDeleteYou mention there are 9 biblical references to clapping. Would you mind listing the verses? By a quick search (not thorough) I didn't find that many. I would question, though, that three of them seem to have a kind of worshipful context: Psalm 47:1, Psalm 98:8, and Isaiah 55:12.
Quote: "Special music even by little children is not a performance"
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say it SHOULD NOT be a performance. I have seen it -- by adults and children -- that surely is a performance in the minds of both the "performer" and the "audience". That is one reason why I am less than enthusiastic for "special music" (that is not to say I haven't seen it done humbly and tastefully).
Please Brother Bishop, let's not try to use the Bible to prove our personal preferences. I personally agree with you in that clapping is NOT worship. Worship is seeking the face of God, humbling one's self when he sees it, repenting and asking to be used (shortened from all the places in scripture I've studied of worship). While clapping indeed is not part of this, you know the Bible does not teach AGAINST it exclusively. Instead, just argue it from the principle stand-point. That ground is much more solid.
ReplyDeleteWe know 99% of the time, clapping is for a person. It is to let them know the crowd appreciates the fact that they sang/played. If it is for God, why don't we hear the clapping churches clap during the sermon whenever a good point is made? Why don't they clap when they agree with a point in the prayer? Why not clap during the invitation when they are under conviction? This is NOT bowing before God, it is encouraging a person.
Now, IF you are clapping to encourage a person (the same way it is when people say AMEN! loud and heartily for a good singer, and you hear one or two Amens for a poor singer, then you are still in the wrong.) To be 100% consistent, Brother Bishop, if God does not need a hand of appreciation or agreement, neither does He need an Amen. Many say they clap when they agree strongly with something sang, showing their agreement. This is what we say Amen is about also.
So to show your appreciation for the group or person, go up to them after the service like you do with the preacher, and say "thank you, I appreciated that" or "I enjoyed that." This is being an encourager like the Bible teaches, and I promise you the group/singer will be much more encouraged when they hear these things, since they are undoubtedly likely to hear negative feedback by those preachers who hate the addition of a flute, or a guitar, or a bass, or an electric piano, or etc. This way, you encourage the group/singer, and you can seek God's face during the worship.
Concerning clapping during a song to keep beat (getting the congregation involved in more than just singing, but also playing their hands as instruments), I do not see a specific problem, other than it tends to get young people riled up more, and less worshipful. It tends also to lead to clapping after the song.
Just some thoughts by a young preacher.
I believe the nine scriptures in reference are below. I still hold that this is not a Bible issue, but rather a Bible principle issue, however I will give the scriptures to be fair.
ReplyDelete(Job 27:23) Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
(Psalms 47:1) To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah. O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
(Psalms 98:8) Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
(Isaiah 55:12) For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
(Lamentations 2:15) All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
(Nahum 3:19) There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?
(2 Kings 11:12) And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king.
(Ezekiel 25:6) For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel;
Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
I have seen clapping at one ABA church that was so bad, that we had to get up and leave. We were visiting to present the mission work and the church had a couple ladies to solo specials. The first lady did a wonderful job! and got a round of applause (this was the first time i had ever seen that in a church)and it was uncomfortable. The second lady did an equally wonderful job, but you can tell she had more natural singing ability and the crowd, stood for a 3 minut ovation with whooos, and whistles. For these people it was a performance for a crowd. It was distasteful.
ReplyDeleteNow I have seen churches where they will yell amen, and clap at a messege point as well as a good "preach on brother" and so forth. It was wonderful.
Now to specials, I have been criticized in the past for not having my girls (9,6,3) sing specials. If they want to do one, I will not stop them, but my kids are not going to put up as a performance for anyone. I do not want my kids believing they are there to entertain others and become filled with pride because of their "performances". Most of the time kids specials are for the pleasure of the audience. And many times adult specials are to shine a light upon themselves.
I wonder this about the children's specials issue as well. Many churches will not allow those who are not members of scriptural Baptist churches sing specials, but will allow unsaved children who are not members of scriptural Baptist churches to sing specials. Isn't there an inconsistency there??
ReplyDeleteJamesCharles, thanks for looking up and posting the 9 scripture references. The search I was using would not look up the variations of clap -- clapped, clappeth, etc. -- and I didn't have time to think of what all they might be.
I also wish you would explain your meaning of the difference between a "Bible issue" and a "Bible principle issue". "I still hold that this is not a Bible issue, but rather a Bible principle issue". Thanks.
Sorry I was unclear. I will paste the part of the comment I'd made which I thought would clarify that statement. I typed, "... the Bible does not teach AGAINST it exclusively. Instead, just argue it from the principle stand-point. That ground is much more solid."
ReplyDeleteIn other words, it's not like the Bible states, "do not clap in church", and it isn't like the Bible even gives scriptures which show clapping to be evil or sinful. The Bible does however give principles which show worship is about reverently humbling ourselves before Almighty Perfect God, seeking His face, repenting and seeking to serve Him (Isaiah 6, 2 Chronicles 7). This, I believe, is the principle set forth in scripture after scripture, showing what worship is. The principle, when applied to clapping, shows clapping for someone does not fit the confines of worship.
This is what I meant by the difference between Bible issue and Bible principle issue. Basically, that the verses about clapping don't apply here, but a principle about worship from the Bible can.
I am against clapping myself for the simple reason that, in the world when one claps after a song, a speech, etc. it is usually to praise the performance or the speech or whatever. I have mostly seen the type of clapping which occurs after special music (and this is becoming more and more commonplace). I have never witnessed hoots and whistles like Bro. Mike saw. All I can say is wow. However, does the practice of clapping in an otherwise ultraconservative ABA Missionary Baptist Church rise to the level of nonfellowship?
ReplyDeleteOf the 9 verses, not one is true worship.
ReplyDeleteJob. 27:23 Negative, with a hiss
Ps. 47:1 Military victory, (See v. 3)
Ps. 98:8 creation
Isa 55:12 creation
Lam 2:15 negative, with a hiss
Nah 3:19 defeat of a nation
2 Kings 11:12 coronation of a king
Ezek. 25:6 by enemies of Israel
Job 34:37 by a rebellious person
All the 9 mentions of clapping have nothing to do with worship.
I believe specials may be done by young people or adults as a testimony of praise to GOd in an humble, spiritual manner.
I agree you should not include people from other denominations to sing specials or play the instruments, but unsaved children have no religiouis affiliation. If they sing in a VBS group or with a youth group I see no problem.
The clapping to keep time to the music is wrong - spiritual music does not require clapping to keep time or to encourage the performer (like at a concert). Clapping adds nothing good to worship. The difference in clapping (cannot be a scriptural expression of approval in true worship) approval but the Amen is taught in OT, NT and in Heaven.
I also believe the BIble shows clapping can be evil or sinful. See above.
ReplyDeleteI went to the BIble to see what was there on the subject, not to ride a personal opinion. NOthing wrong with an opinion the BIble does not contradict.
I know a BMA church in AR that went from clapping to stomping.
How far are some willing to go to make worship entertaining?
Bro. Richard,
ReplyDeleteI'm not disagreeing with you. Believe me I'm not. All I'm asking is: could you fellowship an otherwise ultraconservative ABA Missionary Baptist Church that claps after specials only?
They would not be ultraconservative if they clap after specials, IMO. I have seen it at ABA and at youth camp (been present where it happened), but it always sours the service for me. I always wonder why the pastor or song leader does not have the courage or convictions to ask people not to clap? Is there no one else in the church with enough convictions to speak out against it? If not, silence approves the practice.
ReplyDeleteAbout the children who are not members singing specials in a group, if you leave out the visitors, you must also leave out the ones from your church families that are not saved to be consistent. IMO, that's going to the extreme. We try to teach our children all the BIble including the part about singing praise to the Lord. In Israel's worship (OT, I know), when all the people sang unto the Lord, some were saved, some obviously were not (surely no one believes every person in every text about singing to the Lord is just saved ones).
isn't it possible that even an "amen" can be offered in praise of the person. For example...when a messenger loses a vote and the people saay, "Amen" isn't it just as distasteful as a clap.
ReplyDeleteI know we have all heard the best and best tries at sining specials in Church...which amens are usually louder? When someone does an awesome jam up job there is amens all over...when someone butchers a song are the amens quite as loud?
Why is it when Johnothon Melton preaches the amens shake the roof off but when I preach or James Snyder preaches we barely hear an amen?
I am not a clapper and never have been. I've wanted to buy a clapper b/c i'm too lazy to get up and turn off the light...anyway. I have always discouraged clapping but I believe that just because "amen" is a bible word and used in ot, nt worship doesn't mean it is used today for the right reason.
The principle is what we need to teach...amen means that I am in agreement with what was just said it also means let it be done.
pro-clappers teach that this issue of clapping also means the same thing the just approve of the message or they are saying yes let it be so.
By the way i'm just kidding about James' amens...they shake the roof of too!
ReplyDeleteBrother Bishop, do you honestly believe that clapping IS sinful? If so, then the clapping for creation or praise of God in 1/3 of those scriptures was also wrong? It is not in and of itself sinful. This is what I was trying to say, that the Bible does not condemn clapping. In other words, don't use the Bible verses about clapping to make them say something they do not. Just as clapping CAN be sinful, so too CAN saying Amen be sinful. For example, if you say amen jokingly, or for a person, or in vain repetition, or any other wrong reason. So in other words, since the Bible verses both support clapping in some instances, and don't in others, using them do not help your case.
ReplyDeleteYou can, however, argue your point of view from the principle stand point - that clapping is not conducive to worship. This is a good, solid argument with which few can argue. If they begin arguing against your argument by saying "Amens are used incorrectly", you can simply point out the issue you are discussing is not "Amens" or the use thereof, and so that point does not matter and it is just diverting the attention away from the discussion at hand (clapping.) So, until someone can prove clapping is conducive to worshiping God (not praising Him, but humbling one's self before Him, then the argument is won.
Brother Big J, YEAH RIGHT! As if I get any "amen"s, lol. I don't want them, expect them, need them, etc. First of all, I don't care whether they agree with what I'm saying or not, so long as I preach the truth to the best of my ability and hope to persuade them. Those who say Amen probably already believed it before the sermon, b/c when someone is really changing their mind or heart, they very rarely say anything (or so it is in my experience). Not to mention, hearing people say things while I preach actually distracts me momentarily. My mind is such that when people say things, I want to listen to what they are saying, and therefore vocal approval or agreement distracts me. As Brother Bishop said before, " ... for approval, God doesn't need it" He no more needs an Amen than He does clapping. While I certainly don't condemn it, I prefer we don't have it. We agree without saying it during a sermon, and we can show appreciation for songs by telling them after the services.
ReplyDeleteAfter looking at every place the word "Amen" in the singular is used in the Bible, I found it to be used in four different ways. I will give four verses which I feel sum up all the ways Amen is used, and then explain them.
ReplyDeleteDeuteronomy 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
It seems Amen is here used (and in MANY places dealing with curses) to acknowledge understanding. Saying "So be it" or "I understand and am in agreement".
1 Chronicles 16:36 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel for ever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the LORD.
In many places such as this, it seems Amen is used in agreement or appreciation for the things God has done, in PRAISE of God.
Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Amen also appears to be used as a final affirmation of a sentence. We might say "That's what I believe." It is self-agreement with something you have just stated, and a closing.
Nehemiah 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Here, in both cases, we see the word "worship" and we see bowing heads, or faces to the ground, or falling down. Amen can be used in a worshipful aspect, though this use is only twice in the entire 72 times. This is a smaller percentage than the 1/3 clapping is used for praise. Notice it is rare in a worship setting.
Brother James, thanks for clarifying. I was looking at it as a Bible principle issue IS a Bible issue, so I wasn't sure what you meant.
ReplyDeleteBrother Merritt, you write that not one of the references to clapping is "true worship". If you mean strictly in a New Testament Church context, I would obviously agree. But I cannot agree that we can detach Psalm 47:1, Psalm 98:8 and Isaiah 55:12 completely from a worshipful context. Nor do I see that the main thought in these is military victory or creation -- when one reads the entire contexts -- two seem to be figures of speech which ascribe human characteristics and reactions to inaminate objects and Ps. 47 possibly even has some millennial connotations. I am not arguing for clapping in worship, but rather questioning your reasoning you are using in opposition to it. And surely displaying the flag in church and pledging it is no more "true worship" than clapping to God in context of a military victory?
You are right that in some contexts the Bible shows clapping to be evil or sinful. On the other hand, in other contexts the Bible expresses approval of it. So that just seems to prove it might be either good or bad in certain contexts.
Concerning children singing or singing specials, in my mention I did not mean a group context. I wouldn't favor excluding anyone from the a church context where they are just joining in. But I am thinking of when a church has 11 year Jennie Doe, lost daugther of church member John & Jane Doe, get up before the church and sing a solo. How can this be? Perhaps unsaved children have no denominational religious affiliation -- but they do have an affiliation. They are children of wrath, children of the devil and just as lost as a Jehovah's Witness. In this case do Landmark Baptist prefer lost people of no denominations over saved people other denominations to sing specials or play the instruments? Unusual. Doesn't make sense to me.
Brother Big J, I believe that loud amens for a great job singing words of truth and weak amens for a not so good one that also has words of truth may well betray our reason for saying "amen" in that context. If it is an "amen" of approval of the truth shouldn't it be just as loud for the weak "performance"? (I will allow that one's weak amens may also indicate he wasn't so sure of the truth of what was being sung.)
Bro. James, I'm not sure I'm following you here: "...worshiping God (not praising Him, but humbling one's self before Him)...". Are you saying that praising God is entirely distinct from worshiping God, and that praising God has no place in a church gathering? Or something else?
HA! Brother Vaughn, I'm glad you asked that. I am not saying that praising God is totally separate from worship, in that they can co-exist simultaneously. I am not saying praise should have no place in church gathering.
ReplyDeleteI am saying that the time we set aside specifically for worship - seeking God's face, humbling ourselves before Him, turning from sin and telling Him we will do whatever He desires - is different from praise.
We set aside time for "worship services". I see nothing wrong with "praise services" (AKA in modern times: thanksgiving services, testimony services, song services, etc.), and I see nothing wrong with "prayer services."
I think the church should practice all, however we should keep in mind that while worship can bring praise in our hearts, a worship service is consecrated (set aside) for the purpose of getting right with God. If worship services were mainly for praise, then we need very little preaching about sin, or change of heart. Instead, we need only preaching of how wonderful and great God is, what He has done for us, Blessings, etc. Every time I see worship used as a verb in the Bible, it appears there is a sense of humility (lack of pride), usually expressed as a bowing down, or falling down.
I desire that we all would keep in the forefront of our minds that when we enter into the designated "worship service", we should be seeking God's will. If we enter into a "praise service", we should be thanking God.
While it may be possible to mix the two, I don't think there is any Biblical precedent for doing so, and I think it would be very difficult when it comes to practicality. Usually a person worships, then praises afterward.
To conclude, notice all the instruments and the "dance" we are COMMANDED to praise God with in the sanctuary in psalms 150. Do you really think praising God with a dance is conducive to a worshipful or reverent attitude?
For clarification further still, it is like emotion. You cannot build worship with emotion. You cannot make someone SO happy, or SO sad, that they worship God. You do, however, experience emotion from worshiping. Tears of joy, tears of sorrow, tears of relief, etc may flow after truly worshiping. While the two can occur in your heart (worship and then emotion), they are not interchangeable nor should one build worship by emotions.
ReplyDeleteI imagine some would pervert the meaning of Psalm 150 and the word "dance" to include drama or interpretive dance in worship. I have seen it in an ABA church and it is not conducive to worship. It was a choreographed performance.
ReplyDeleteI do believe where the BIble points out clapping is sinful, it is.
And where the Bible points out worship is sinful, it is. And where the Bible points out contentment is sinful, it is. And where the Bible points out eating is sinful, or speaking is sinful, or anything else is sinful, it is. We agree, but we can't use the fact that something CAN be sinful to teach against it exclusively. That's all I was trying to say. After all, EVERYTHING can be sinful except serving God. Worship can be sinful if it is to the wrong person, or anything else if done to the excess (excepting God's will which has no excess.)
ReplyDeleteIf we can't teach against something exclusively, we are back in the land of moral relativism. GOd's Word is absolute truth - it is exclusively the only standard God will accept. To try to explain it away is moral relativism.
ReplyDeleteBrother... You are missing what I am saying completely. If the Bible doesn't not outlaw clapping in EVERY instance, you can't call it a sin. This is not moral relativism. The Bible approves of clapping in some instances, and disapproves in others. You can NOT therefore say clapping is ALWAYS a sin. If you do, YOU are the one who is taking God's Word out of context, and avoiding the absolute truth, and avoiding the only standard God will accept. You would be the one trying to explain God's truth away.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm saying is that if God's Word condones something in certain instances, but condemns it in others, then you had better not condemn it totally (exclusively) in every instance. This is taking scripture out of context, and is wresting the scriptures. Do you see what I am saying?
According to what you just said (if you read my entire last post), then you teach that worship is sinful exclusively. You believe that all worship is wrong, b/c the Bible teaches worship CAN be sinful.
ReplyDeleteYou are trying to put words in my mouth. Your logic is full of holes. You have projected something I do not believe.
ReplyDeleteI do not project what you may or may not believe. It doesn't give your thoughts any more credibility.
IMO the Bible disapproves clapping in true worship.
This issue came up at camp this year again. (Camp #1) As always there were new churches there that clapped after a special. one youth group clapped to the beat as they were singin there special. This was offensive to some, however it did not appear to be offensive to the worshipful atmosphere in which it was done. The kids doing the clapping were having a good time praising God in song and really enjoying worshipping in the moment. The amen issue is still as wrong as clapping, because the excuse for not clapping when someone sings is that the people clap louder for some than for others and this may hurt feelings. the amens are the same. I saw a well repsected preacher in our work sing at camp a few years ago and raise his hand while he was singing. This was the same hand raising that a normal person who no one knows would have been labeled a heretic for. The man was worshipping God. When this man was through singing the amens poured in loud and clear. The next adult that sang was a preachers wife, and while the special was good it was not like the other. The amens were scattered here and there. I am not in favor of clapping for applause, but I am not in favor of amening for applause either.
ReplyDeleteI am not putting words in your mouth, I am trying to help you see what you actually said. If you read ALL my posts, you will see I agree with your opinion that clapping is not part of true worship, nor should it be allowed in it. I agree, I just stated that you should explain that it is the principle the Bible teaches about worship that proves this point, not the Bible verses about clapping. The Bible verses about clapping show how clapping can be bad in some instances, and how it can be good in some instances, but it NEVER mentions clapping in worship.
ReplyDeleteThis is why I stated clapping is NOT exclusively bad, it is ONLY bad in certain contexts. Then you stated and I quote, "If we can't teach against something exclusively, we are back in the land of moral relativism." You stated this in response to when I said that we cannot say clapping is a sin altogether, it is ONLY a sin in certain contexts, BECAUSE the Bible approves of clapping in 3 out of 9 places.
I stated that according to the reasoning which you were appearing to say, that b/c the Bible has 6/9 places where clapping is sinful, that it is ALWAYS sinful, then you must follow the same line of thought, that because the Bible shows worship to be sinful in some places, then it must always be sinful. The reasoning you appeared to be using is that b/c the Bible condemns something in ONE verse (in one situation), that that something is exclusively sinful. You responded saying we can exclusively say clapping is sinful. This is WRONG. Clapping is only sinful in the contexts in scripture where it is noted to be sinful. Clapping is not sinful in the contexts in which scriptures show it to be non-sinful. Therefore, we can NOT exclusively say clapping is a sin.
To which, you responded that to not preach against clapping exclusively as sinful, we are somehow having moral relativism and avoiding Bible truth. If I were using that kind of reasoning, I can take the 3 pro-clapping verses and say that clapping is ALWAYS positive.
And ALL of this began simply b/c I was trying to explain that your argument against clapping in worship would be on a stronger, more firm foundation if you argued it from the principles about worship taught in the Bible, not from verses which have NOTHING to do with worship.
Brother Barry, our excuse for not clapping has nothing to do with applause or being louder for a person. It has to do with this and this alone.
ReplyDeleteMy definitions of worship.
Worship - Verb. To seek God's face, humble one's self before Him, repent of sin and submit to His will.
Worship - Noun. The act of worshipping.
How can clapping add to worship, if you define worship as I do?
That is the issue.
Perhaps I did not state myself clearly, Bro. James. I do see your point. I tend to see things in white and black, not in a lot of grays. I agree the principles of true worship teach against clapping.
ReplyDeleteBro. Richard,
ReplyDeleteI hope you didn't think I would be in favor of clapping, which I am not. I have a hard time myself seeing the gray areas. I just wanted to know whether you would consider it a test of fellowship with a church that is generally ultraconservative. The only two problems that I see there is that they clap after specials and the way that the women dress (they wear slacks), although as I said earlier, if they are modest and womanly (not something a man would wear), I have less of a problem. They are generally what you and I would consider to be traditional. There is a sweetness of fellowship there that I have rarely seen and there is a man there who recently received prosthetics for his legs and praises God for blessing him to be able to walk again.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteIs it wrong to clap in the Philippine Islands when there are no other instruments to be played? How does clapping not fit into the definitions that you presented? Just curious. I am not asking this question in a confrontational way, just interested in your answer. I will not think one way or the other of you regardless of your answer.
Brother Barry, I don't really know. If it is conducive to an attitude of humility and reverence in their culture, then it is fine. If it is not (like here), then it is not good for worship service.
ReplyDeleteI do not know of a single person that claps for humility, or reverence, or repentance, therefore it does not fit into the definitions I gave. If they did, they'd clap during the sermon when their hearts are pricked.
Bro. James,
ReplyDeleteThat is a good answer.
Arch Bishop said, "They would not be ultraconservative if they clap after specials, IMO."
ReplyDeleteWow...now we judge the conservatism of a church by clapping versus amens. I guess an open-communion, universal church believing, homosexual clergy ordaining, "amening" church is more conservative than a closed (or restricted) communion, local church teaching, I Timothy obeying, "clapping" church. And yes, there are very liberal churches that will not clap. But there are very conservative churches that do.
Oh well, that's all I have to say.
(By the way Arch Bishop, no offense is meant. I just thought I'd have a little fun with your statement!)
Bro. Matt,
ReplyDeleteWell, one thing I can say about Bro. Richard is that he at least knows what the Word of God is.
I for one did not take that as a joke.
Bro. James,
Also count me in on the "legalistic" wing of the ABA.
It was no joke. And was no insult. It was just an observation, and in my mind not in any way demeaning to him. It wasn't to call him out. I love him and consider him a close friend. It was just an observation, and yes Brother young, I also observe you to be on the extreme side.
ReplyDeleteWe need to define conservative in terms of a church context. IMO it is Christ-centered old fashioned Bible preaching, uses KJV, hymn singing, amenning and traditional dress church that practices closed communion and church discipline, ordains pastors and deacons with biblical qualifications, rejects alien immersion, practices separation (non-ecumenical), no fund raising and supports scriptural missions that has its goal preaching the gospel, baptizing believers, teaching all BIble truth and organizing churches. These 12 things define conservative IMO.
ReplyDeleteBro. Arch Bishop,
ReplyDeleteI agree that one issue is defining conservative in terms of a church context. Now, while we may or may not agree on how to define it, that at least gets us at a starting point. Thanks for giving your definition.
Bro. Younglandmarker,
You said, "Well, one thing I can say about Bro. Richard is that he at least knows what the Word of God is." I'm not really sure what you meant by that. It's late, so I'm probably missing the thought process. Let me know.
Bro. Younglandmarker,
ReplyDeleteNo offense was meant to Arch Bishop. I saw a line of thinking I wanted to explore and thought it might be humorous, yet stimulating. I apologize to you and Bro. Arch Bishop for not making that more clear.
In my comments, debating, etc., I may attack a principle, teaching, etc., but I don't want you or anyone else to think I'm attacking them. Now, I may use what they say at times to prove a point or turn something back on them (or even have fun!), but it is not my intention to hurt anyone. We're all brothers. I don't want to hurt family...if you know what I mean!
I would define a conservative church as one which is strictly by the Bible, no rules added, no rules subtracted. By this definition, our church falls in line with this definition.
ReplyDeleteWe have Christ-centered old fashioned Bible preaching, use the KJV, sing old fashioned doctrinally sound hymns and modern doctrinally sound hymns, we amen (even though I don't) and clap (even though I don't and disagree with this practice), we wear traditional dress according to this church's tradition (and I wear a tie most every Sunday), we practice closed communion and church discipline, we ordain pastors and deacons with biblical qualifications, we reject alien immersion (depending on your definition), we practice separation (non-ecumenical), we fund raise like EVERY CHURCH WHO RECEIVES MONEY raises funds, we support scriptural missions that have goals of preaching the gospel, baptizing believers, teaching all Bible truth and organizing churches.
Just curious, did you forget to leave out "ABA literature only" ?
ReplyDeleteSo, would your complete definition of alien immersion be a believer who has been immersed?
ReplyDeleteHow in the world would a believer who has been immersed make it alien? I don't understand your question.
ReplyDeleteIf the believer was not baptized by the proper authority (through a true New Testament church). This is what separates us from many if not most Baptists. A lot of Baptists believe in "believers' baptism" or that as long as the person is saved and immersed, it matters not who did the baptizing.
ReplyDeleteit should have said *your complete definition of Scriptural baptism*. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteI think I answered your question on my blog. The question then arises in defining "true New Testament church". A true New Testament church can be in error, but how much error can they be in before we deem them an untrue church? Or which particular errors do we consider more important than others to deem them untrue churches? Or how long do they have to be in error before we consider them untrue churches? These are questions to which none have been able to give a thorough answer (except Brother Crain.)
ReplyDeleteNobody has anything to say about what makes a church concervative?
ReplyDeleteI believe they don't add rules or restrictions the Bible doesn't, and they don't take away from rules and restrictions the Bible gives. This is a conservative church.
ReplyDeleteThey are doctrinally sound first and foremost, they carry out the great commission, and they don't water down the Bible.
It seems that conservative/liberal is often used this way:
ReplyDeleteConservative - a church/person that agree with me.
Liberal - a church/person that disagrees with me.
In my opinion, conservative is approaching the Bible as authoritative and believing what it says. Liberal is approaching the Bible as opinion and choosing to accept or reject that opinion based on notions outside the Bible.
So I don't think of churches as conservative/liberal so much for what they believe and practice as for how they approach and arrive at what they believe and practice.
Well said, Bro. Vaughn.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Bro. James Charles, with what you said.
Yet, almost everyone thinks of their church as conservative no matter what they believe or practice.
To go a step further, I believe J. R. Graves' principles of Landmarkism are the very essence of a conservative church.
I think they are the essence of a Landmark church, not necessarily a conservative church... thus the way you titled it.
ReplyDeleteIf that be the case and every church considers themselves conservative as you say, then asking this question obviously won't give you a clear definition. I stand by what I said, and I firmly stand by my church as the best church I've ever visited. I love many of the LORD's churches.
ReplyDeleteAs read through the Gospels again, I am amazed at how often the Scribes and Pharisees were debating the Law, the Sabbath, and various and sundry other topics while Jesus was eating with Publicans and sinners.
ReplyDeleteI have a group of young adults who don't even know that they need a preference between KJV or other, clapping or not, Praise and Worship or "Old-fashioned" hymns.
Cmon, you guys are really having this conversation about clapping?
I assume the last post is Corey and I say "Here Here"!!!!!
ReplyDeleteBrother Longview Drive MBC, am I correct in saying you just called a group of young adults ignorant, and then applauded it? We should ALL have reasons behind what we believe. Whether we believe it's all okay, or none of it is okay, we need to know WHY we believe that.
ReplyDeleteWhether someone is labeled a "liberal" or a "legalist", I respect their position IF they have studied the subjects in depth, and have sound reasoning to believe the way they do. This is why I respsect extremely highly Brother Bishop and younglandmarker, and also very highly Brother R. L. Vaughn. They have shown they are well studied in many of the areas, even though they all disagree.
While your group of young adults may not care, if they don't know WHY they don't care, I see it as a lack of study.
For example, which Bible version is EXTREMELY important to those on both sides of the issues if they have studied it out in depth. The issue is that of "did God preserve His every Word as He promised?" and "if so, in what Greek and Hebrew text?" and then, if a certain one, "what method of translation for those texts would give us God's words?" You see, it is a matter of faith in God. If you believe God's promise to keep every single word to every generation of men, then you can NEVER say "any bible will do" unless you are unwilling to study the subject and therefore are willfully ignorant. Last I checked, willful ignorance was condemned in the scriptures.
I agree that we need to know WHY we believe.
ReplyDeleteI guess if we could even say that we even ought to know WHY we don't believe anything about the things on which we don't believe anything.
A conservative and a legalist are 2 different creatures, according to the example of the Jews who wanted to add circumcision to salvation. They were legalists who wanted to add something to the truth. Conservatives do not add to truth - they just try to believe and practice Bible truth. Pharisees were practicing legalists because they added hundreds of their own commands to the law. According to that understanding, a liberal is embracing things not according to truth - thus a liberal is actually a legalist, not a conservative.
ReplyDeleteI think liberals follow less laws than are in the Bible, and legalists add more laws than are in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteI'm not ignorant enough to think all ABA churches are right where they need to be. Let me ask this question to all.
What kind of ABA churches are legalists, and what kind of ABA churches are liberals?
If you don't know where the landmarks are, how can you tell a legalist from a liberal? (In reference to a reply from "all"). It will be a valueless question poll unless all the definitions are the same (which you may be sure they won't be.)A legalist may not think he's liberal and a liberal may not think he's a legalist and IMO a landmarker is neither.
ReplyDeleteBut according to your definition or opinion, what kind of ABA churches are legalists, and what kind are liberals?
ReplyDeleteJamescharles
ReplyDeleteI realize that you missed my point, so I'll make it again.
The young adults at my church and ignorant because they are new believers. We are in the habit of working with new believers. I'd take an ignorant new believer over an ignorant preacher any day. I wish someone would start a blog called
"Indefenseofmakemarkism" rather than "indefenseoflandmarkism"
Bro. Cory,
ReplyDeleteThis is something that is a rather disturbing trend to me. I wholeheartedly believe we need to be reaching the lost. We need to be getting involved in their lives and showing them that we care about their souls and leading them to the Lord. However, here is what concerns me: You made the statement:
"I wish someone would start a blog called "Indefenseofmakemarkism" rather than "indefenseoflandmarkism." Landmarkism proper deals with the Bible's teaching on separation from false religion. It has to do with the local nature of the church, closed communion, rejection of alien immersion, pulpit affiliation, ecumenical alliances, organizations, meetings, etc.,
My question to you is: should we focus solely on evangelism and forget about the teaching of "all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."?
Brother Longview Drive MBC,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I missed your point. I guess I still don't understand what you are getting at. There is nothing wrong with new believers, as long as they don't stay there. We have a great deal many of those on Wednesday nights that we are also educating, and right now are focused on how to live a Christian life. We are beginning to slowly incorporate doctrine of church, but have been mostly focused on getting them out of sin so they can care about the distinction of Baptist. I suppose it depends on how long that particular group of young adults stay in that "milk" state that would tell you where you need to go.
I realized after a whole year of teaching that I needed to begin teaching Baptist distinctives, because one young person we'd recently baptized and added to our membership came to the "Lord's Supper" with an apple pie. I realized I'd missed the mark somewhere. While she was no longer rebellious against her parents as she had been, and while she'd begun to dedicate herself to Christ, she didn't have a clue about why she was Baptist.
I think it is important to teach both the Christian life, and add the doctrines as much as possible, of which our people are ignorant. We are, after all, commanded to preach the entire counsel of God.
I think one thing perhaps some self-labeled landmarkers (the ones who condemn us for teaching how to live Christ-like and not enough doctrinal statement) don't have to deal with is a large group of new converts. When you work with a majority of new converts or lost, you are dealing with people who know NOTHING about the Bible. They don't know right or wrong, they've been led by their parents to believe sex with anyone at any time is acceptable behavior, they've been taught drinking and smoking is fine, and anything one wants to do is okay for them. We have to begin at the very beginning with "Obey your parents", "Take care of your body and get off drugs", "Don't have sex until married and only with your spouse" with many, and with the lost, we need to focus constantly on salvation. While we can slowly give doctrine of church, it is more important at the moment to give more doctrine of the Christian life.
ReplyDeleteIf a lost person believes whole-heartedly the truth about salvation, full immersion, and the Christian life, they will most likely not be led too far astray in life. If a person can quote the 21, but lives a life of adultery and drunkenness, what good has the 21 done?
I have no desire for these new believers to stay at ignorance. I do, however, feel more and more as I reach the lost that in teaching them the truth, that much of what I hear preachers arguing about about will never come up. I hope to never teach them about clapping or not, about KJV only or not, about praise and worship or hymns, etc... There is real life being lived by the lost and they need real answers.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean this personally towards anyone, but I have yet to meet someone that is a sold out enough soul-winner and disciple-maker that they have the right to sit around and bicker about things that have no bearing on the Kingdom of God.
These people need to know how Jesus can work in their marriages and with their children. They don't need a token "old-fashioned" sermon that makes me feel like I've preached. As people with no prior church experience, they find themselves worshipping with music that sounds like what they like. They don't realize that they are supposed to have a preference. They don't understand why our church still sings songs that are 300 years old. They clap because they clap everywhere else when they get excited. They don't know that they are supposed to worry about it.
I probably shouldn't have even got on this blog. I admit, I did it out of spite. It bothers me that there is even a blog with this name. I just would like to see my fellow pastors shoeing the same passion for the lost, and for disciple-making. I'm sorry if I got out of hand. I don't know you, but you're my brother.
Oh BTW, I whole-heartedly agree that we should teach the Baptist Beliefs (a.k.a. the Bible beliefs), I just don't include all these hot-topics.
ReplyDeleteI would love to have seen the apple-pie thing. What a funny yet powerful teaching time.
I respectfully disagree with your statement that the Bible version has no bearing on God's Kingdom. If one is to live by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD, then which words do we live by?
ReplyDeleteIf Bible version doesn't matter, then neither does the truth of God's Words. Study becomes unnecessary, since one can sum up the Bible in a few phrases. If, however, every word portrays something God has for us, some clarity, some freshness, then the Bible versions do indeed matter greatly.
The question isn't "Is someone supposed to study God's Word?" The question is "Which book is God's Word?" If we say "any", then let's throw in the Koran and Talmud while we are at it.
Concerning not being sold out enough to sit around and bicker, as you call it, why would you be here doing the same? Of course we can discuss God's Word with one another, the disagreements, and still be winning souls in our personal day to day lives. And after all, we have to balance the Christian life. We can't spend all day studying, lest we forget to pray. We can't spend all day praying, lest we forget to witness. We can't spend all day witnessing, lest we forget to attend church. So on and so forth.
I love Jesus Yes I do I love Jesus how about you!!!!
ReplyDeleteMy Brothers this looks serious. 68 comments. Where have I been. I pastor a Church where some clapping goes on. I would say about 1/4 clap. I am on the 3/4 side. In other words I do not clap. I watch as those who choose to clap and to me they are applauding and I do not like it, but someone told me they are doing it to encourage. Question: Can that be so? Is it ok to clap for someone to encourage them to continue to use their talents for the honor and glory of the Father?
ReplyDeleteNo I am not condoning or taking up for the few. Just a question.
Neither do I allow the once who clap hinder my worship. Worship is between me and my father and no one else.
ReplyDelete